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Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

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Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#71

Post by bryanrasmussen »

eplanit wrote: post #63
drewcoo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the classical you all listen to all "top 40" "oldies" from folks like Bach and Beethoven or do you listen to anything reasonably new? I'm talking 20th or 21st century classical. Say John Adams or Kaija Saariaho, maybe? That's the classical music that I enjoy that my mom can't stand. And that is the difference this is talking about.

"I'm talking 20th or 21st century classical" I can't consider anything so recent to be "classical" -- it might imitate the style of older music, but to call that 'classical' makes the word basically meaningless, or that it's only a style (however that would be defined). To me, 'classical' means that it has survived and thrived across _many_ years.

>To me, 'classical' means that it has survived and thrived across _many_ years.

I believe that would normally be referred to as a classic.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#72

Post by nzeribe »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #23

The article makes a very strenuous effort to make a point about something something racism in rock that sounds a bit boring and trite to my ears. After all, Bon Scott said it best years ago: In the beginning Back in nineteen fifty five Man didn't know 'bout a rock 'n' roll show And all that jive The white man had the schmaltz The black man had the blues No one knew what they was gonna do But Tchaikovsky had the news…

That's not true. Afropunk was a response to the question you pose. White people stole the rock from Black kids the way Ancient Greece stole the Hippocratic Oath from African culture. It is almost the same. Today, it's almost impossible to know Bo Diddley, Sister Rosetta Tharpe and other Black pioneers created rock in almost it's complete form. "History is written by the winners", they say, and our cultural memory is like a hard drive which has been written over. Show the typical rock fan footage of Black women going hard at a rock guitar in 1955, and they will profess shock. The re-writing of history has been successful. The "analogous new rock scene" you are searching for is called rap. It is rock music without guitars and for years in the early days, without white people. Think about Run-DMC in 1982, and how "punk-rock" they were with the stripped down sound and hard lyrics. Black artists were hounded out of rock music by racist promoters and a hostile music industry, and their answer to it was hip-hop. The history of Black music has been of flight, an attempt to escape white cultural aggression stealing their music and style without accreditation or compensation. Promoters defunded and starved out Black performers, and the answer to that is two turntables and a mic on the underground, sound systems plugged into street lights - where they can't get defunded, have control, and have no white people. The Beatles up until 1964 were almost identical to the Isley Brothers but racism in the US was so entrenched that Americans had to re-import the music on their doorstep being made at home through 4 white kids from Liverpool. How ironic is that?

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#73

Post by SyzygistSix »

eplanit wrote: post #63
drewcoo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the classical you all listen to all "top 40" "oldies" from folks like Bach and Beethoven or do you listen to anything reasonably new? I'm talking 20th or 21st century classical. Say John Adams or Kaija Saariaho, maybe? That's the classical music that I enjoy that my mom can't stand. And that is the difference this is talking about.

"I'm talking 20th or 21st century classical" I can't consider anything so recent to be "classical" -- it might imitate the style of older music, but to call that 'classical' makes the word basically meaningless, or that it's only a style (however that would be defined). To me, 'classical' means that it has survived and thrived across _many_ years.

I thought the same way and referred to modern classical music as symphonic music or composition. But a professor friend and composer taught me that modern symphonic music is referred to as classical music. Probably because the approach is a classical one, even if the composer is Stockhausen.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#74

Post by SyzygistSix »

ramphastidae wrote: post #58
bsenftner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hip hip is the philosophy of survival in a racist culture. It dies when the racism dies.

Oh come off it. Little to no mainstream hip hop addresses racism in any meaningful way. It’s still mostly sex, drugs, objectifying women, glorifying the rich, and violence.

It doesn't have to address racism in any meaningful way to fulfill the function of being centered around identity. When that identity becomes meaningless, the culture around it will lose meaning as well.

The Martians and the Belters will have their own music.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#75

Post by ehnto »

dijksterhuis wrote: post #67
ehnto wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm I don't quite agree but it could be that the scenes are different in different places. It could also be that our definitions of EDM differ. I might also be missing something so take my comment as just my perspective from where I stand. I think there is a split between commercialized EDM and "real" EDM. The true culture and heritage of house and techno definitely live on in the greater electronic music scene in gen…

> I think there is a split between commercialized EDM and "real" EDM. This could be a locale thing, but in the UK what you call "real" EDM is often known as the underground electronic music scene (at least in my circles). I.e. the long tail of folks pissing about with machines in their bedroom. Note the lack of "dance" as not all underground electronic music needs to be danced to. Autechre is a good example of this.…

That's really interesting, this thread is definitely telling me I am out of the loop anyway, as it seems that difference in understanding has even morphed over time. It doesn't surprise me at all though, there's still disputes about what "real" Bossa nova is to this day so that a genre as broad and eclectic as electronic music has a blurry cultural lexicon isn't all that shocking.

I agree regarding EDM being a bit of a misnomer, I had always thought it was a weird term to use for everything. Another specific sub-genre in electronic music is IDM, Intelligent Dance Music, which occasionally doesn't even have a stable time signature, so it's not alone in that!

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#76

Post by SyzygistSix »

llamataboot wrote: post #3

I often reflect on the similiarities to that and how techno and house became EDM. When I started going to Midwestern raves in the 1990s they were literally some of the first fully integrated places I hung out in. Definitely some of the Detroit techno parties we went too, some of the first places where it was a majority Black space. EDM now is thought of as this totally white music, all electronic music really, by eve…

>But for some of those years in the 1990s it really felt like we were living in the future.

It certainly felt like it. But people were quickly put back in their place.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#77

Post by stephenhuey »

eplanit wrote: post #63
drewcoo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the classical you all listen to all "top 40" "oldies" from folks like Bach and Beethoven or do you listen to anything reasonably new? I'm talking 20th or 21st century classical. Say John Adams or Kaija Saariaho, maybe? That's the classical music that I enjoy that my mom can't stand. And that is the difference this is talking about.

"I'm talking 20th or 21st century classical" I can't consider anything so recent to be "classical" -- it might imitate the style of older music, but to call that 'classical' makes the word basically meaningless, or that it's only a style (however that would be defined). To me, 'classical' means that it has survived and thrived across _many_ years.

I am close to people who write and play compositions with these traditional orchestral instruments today and they refer to these pieces as “new music” although most people would hear them as “classical” pieces. Most people call a wide swath of several centuries of music “classical” but in the music world, there was technically a very particular Classical music period in the 1700s and early 1800s. When musicians today study at top music schools, no one there calls “classical” what most people outside that world call classical. They refer to the particular time period because they distinguish unique traits between each in the way we might distinguish fairly similar genres today. So, as I said, if some composer today comes up with a new concerto the people in that world call it “new music”.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#78

Post by splithalf »

wayneftw wrote: post #21
bumbada wrote: post #20

What killed rock n roll is the same thing that "killed" every other music genre before: Demographics. People get older and young people want to differentiate themselves from older people, so they just do different things, including listening to different music. This even happened with what we consider classical music, from Beethoven Eroica to Stravinski Rite of Spring and specially Operas. Old people will consider a…

Why hasn't rap died? It's been popular for multiple generations now.

Raps not dead it just smells funny.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#79

Post by SyzygistSix »

mycologos wrote: post #19
WJW wrote: post #16

It's just https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths all over again. As old as the world.

I like that theory, but TFA doesn't really advance it. Among other things, TFA argues that commercially powerful interests like record companies deliberately fractured rock and roll's racial integration into segregated genres. I don't think "geeks, mops, sociopaths" covers this kind of intentional, external crackdown on a subculture.

TFA? What are you referencing?

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#80

Post by dijksterhuis »

ehnto wrote: post #75
dijksterhuis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there is a split between commercialized EDM and "real" EDM. This could be a locale thing, but in the UK what you call "real" EDM is often known as the underground electronic music scene (at least in my circles). I.e. the long tail of folks pissing about with machines in their bedroom. Note the lack of "dance" as not all underground electronic music needs to be danced to. Autechre is a good example of this.…

That's really interesting, this thread is definitely telling me I am out of the loop anyway, as it seems that difference in understanding has even morphed over time. It doesn't surprise me at all though, there's still disputes about what "real" Bossa nova is to this day so that a genre as broad and eclectic as electronic music has a blurry cultural lexicon isn't all that shocking. I agree regarding EDM being a bit of…

I wouldn't say you're out of the loop. Generally speaking I think you're right in what you're saying (commercial vs. underground).

Ultimately it's just a label that people can apply to certain things to lump stuff into a category for them to conceptualise what "thing in category" is.

In the UK (at least in my experience), we had an existing label to call this "thing". Then Skrillex, Steve Aoki etc happened and everyone tried to tell us it was called something different (EDM).

We were like, no. Piss off. It's not that. What you're doing is not what we're doing.

And it's sort of stuck as this "definitely not what we're doing" labelling category.

Tomato, tomaaato.

--

IDM is an awful term. And I say that as someone who buys a lot of IDM.

My friend has a different (arguably better) name for it: "hurty brain music".

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