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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

71–80 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#71
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even before that; the religious right has been posing themselves as victims for decades. Bill O'Reily started talking about "you're no longer allowed to say 'Merry Christmas'" in the earlier '00s, which aside from being nonsense, is also a good example of their supposed victimhood.

You can totally take it the other way too. A group of people felt they were being victimized by having Christian seasonal greetings directed at them and went on a campaign to make that behavior be seen as uncouth.

Except that didn't happen.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#72

It's popular to be a victim these days. Much more popular than I recall it being earlier in my lifetime. It even goes so far as to regard people who aren't victims with contempt.

Reminds me of this spoof commercial I heard on some comedy radio show one time for the drug Nothingenol - for people who suffer anxiety over not having been diagnosed with a disorder.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#73
post #47
post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

When I was about 14 I was diagnosed with autism; specifically, PDD-NOS ("Pervasive Development Disorder Not Otherwise Specified"; nice catch-all). This diagnosis wasn't accurate, and was mostly based on my lack of social ability (I never really had most of the other signs of autism). Today I'm plenty sociable, and I'm basically just a normal guy. I can't blame them for making this misdiagnosis though. I grew up in a…

You make a good point about how your attitude affects your behavior. I see it with immigrants who didn't grow up in the south like I did. I've repeatedly heard "oh, I wouldn't want to go visit southern Virginia because of all the racists." I kid you not, I was just in southern Virginia with my white wife, our mixed kids, and a Chinese friend and her Jewish husband. It was great! Everyone was great. It's a lovely part of the country with lovely people. I wouldn't want my kid to deny herself those experiences out of some fear of "white supremacists" lurking in the shadows.

> Perhaps I'm applying my own personal experiences a bit too much here, but what worries me especially is the effect is has on self-confidence of these kids. It's fine to have these kind of discussions in politics or academia, but teaching them to kids? I find it worrying.

Agreed. I think "systemic racism" is a bad name for quantifiable disparities that, in an academic context, can be show to exist using facts and statistics. That doesn't mean you should teach it to kids, especially using labels that were specifically chosen to make them think their neighbors are out to get them.

"White supremacy," by contrast, doesn't exist, and it's absurd to pretend it does in a country where whites are poorer than several immigrant demographics, and are effectively underrepresented in elite colleges, Silicon Valley, etc.

As you observe, these discussions are politically fraught. I would prefer to stay out of them. But this sort of teaching and rhetoric has been extended to Asians now, and as someone with Asian kids I can't ignore it anymore.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a moral or a factual statement? I guess I'd reject the whole victim/perpetrator dichotomy and say that people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. Lots of people and societies find this very uncomfortable - we generally like the cosmos to be largely about us, down to our decisions, both for the better and for the worse.

> people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. It is a factual statement, I agree, but in the US it is not true. Peoples' lives are the sum of their choices, large and small. One can choose to learn how to make better choices. I spent a significant portion of every day learning to make better choices and doing things that will improve my life. Such as exercisi…

It’s a sum of their choices and their parents’ choices*, heavily weighted toward theirs, but I think my success is at least 20% the consequences of my parents’ hard work and good choices.

* - and a sliver of teachers and other influential adults, but the overwhelmingly majority are from people who could say good night and good morning to each other.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#75
post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

As another person of color, I agree. What really makes me nervous is the talk of "white privilege". Although it is not meant as such, it is saying that in the world as is, all things being equal, white people are superior to people of color. For example, if you had to evaluate totally objectively whether you should hire a white CEO or a person of color as CEO, and they were otherwise equal, if you believe in the fram…

My main problem with White privilege is that is drawing a big line between white people and people of color. IMO one of the big civil rights achievements was to get rid of that divide. To start seeing people as individuals of equal value, based on their character not group identity.

I'm white, my wife is not. I fear where my kids will land in all of this. If we are drawing hard lines between people how will half white children find their place in all this mess? To me it shouldn't matter they have multiple cultures they come from, in the same way I'm Scottish and Irish.

That said it's not a bad thing to look for areas in society for race based discriminations and eliminate them.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can totally take it the other way too. A group of people felt they were being victimized by having Christian seasonal greetings directed at them and went on a campaign to make that behavior be seen as uncouth.

Except that didn't happen.

Who were the people that put forward the “say happy holidays not merry Christmas” issue?

Or was the issue invented (and lost) by conservative talking heads?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#77
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s truly hard to overstate what a ridiculous position you have staked out here with this argument. You’ve picked some arbitrary definition of what it means to be a victim based on god only knows what philosophy or life experience and then tried to state it as some kind of objective fact or enlightened wisdom.

> ridiculous position I'm well aware of how other people perceive it. It's completely contrary to the barrage of what I call "cult of the victim" that spews forth from nearly all media. I don't expect to change your mind. But give it a chance. For example, A man falls down the stairs and breaks his leg. Victim: "I'm so unlucky, my leg broke. Oh, life is so unfair." Non-Victim: "Phew, I'm so lucky! I could have broken…

"‘He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me’–for those who brood on this, hostility isn’t stilled.

"‘He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me’–for those who don’t brood on this, hostility is stilled.

"Hostilities aren’t stilled through hostility, regardless.

"Hostilities are stilled through non-hostility: this, an unending truth.

"Unlike those who don’t realize that we’re here on the verge of perishing, those who do: their quarrels are stilled."

--Dhammapada, ch. 1, circa 1st century common era (trans. Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Dhp/Ch01.html

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a moral or a factual statement? I guess I'd reject the whole victim/perpetrator dichotomy and say that people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. Lots of people and societies find this very uncomfortable - we generally like the cosmos to be largely about us, down to our decisions, both for the better and for the worse.

> people's conditions are contingent on forces largely out of their control. That's a factual statement. It is a factual statement, I agree, but in the US it is not true. Peoples' lives are the sum of their choices, large and small. One can choose to learn how to make better choices. I spent a significant portion of every day learning to make better choices and doing things that will improve my life. Such as exercisi…

> in the US it is not true

That is patently false. You can divide Americans into any number of segments which they are born into and reliably determine that segment's success. E.g. white people earn more than black people. Children of rich parents do better in school than children of poor parents. Lawyers who graduated in 2000 are more successful than ones who graduated in 2008. Forces out of their control determined this. Their "conditions" are functions of this. Your statement would imply that the people in these segments just happened to make worse choices unrelated to the circumstances of their segments. That would be quite the coincidence.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#80
post #28

This is a good time to recommend some supplementary reading: The Coddling of the American Mind[1], a book that does a great job of outlining what has changed in the last 30 years and why there is very much a generational gap at play with how people perceive themselves. It turns out, raising kids in an environment of "safetyism" where nothing ever goes wrong makes full-grown adults really unresilient, and more prone t…

I’ve not read the book but the first thing that came to mind was how does this explain the boomers? If I am understanding the premise correctly it’s implying there’s some meaningful distinction across generational lines about mental resilience? The last five years have made that abundantly clear that premise would have some real flaws in it.

In what ways are boomers displaying victimhood? The article is quite specific and I wouldn’t recognise that group (though surely there will be individuals within that group) as displaying the kind of victimhood that suggests the high TIV mentioned.
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