What is the likelihood AstraZenca's supplying problems and the sour relationship between it and the EU influenced the decision for Denmark to permanently cease using this vaccine ?
Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
71–80 of 344 posts
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.
Slowely I'm getting the impression that a lot of decisions around AZ are politically driven. In Germany, the new recommendation is now to use Biontech for the second shot after AZ. In that recommendation, it is also stated that there are no studies nor data supporting that. Quite funny, because there is, to my understanding, a study taking place in the Uk for that. It is expected to be done by end of April. Someone h…
I was getting the impression that pretty much any government decision around COVID-19 was politically driven, not just AZ.
Actually that does not even sound very surprising.
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#73This decision seems illogical to many commenters here, but I assume the decision was made by professionals with all the data in front of them. Which then raises the question, why did these professionals make a decision so different than the "obvious" opinion here?
People on this platform, I assume, are familiar with the scientific consensus on these topics and generally side with the science. But one has to understand, that these decisions are not made directly by scientists but by politicians who have scientific advisors. And as politicians, they will factor in a lot more than just the hard science on a topic, which can result in seemingly unscientific decisions that go against the "obvious" findings.
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#74Not giving it to 65+ people seems overly cautious. There are zero cases in that group and even just a small delay will mean many dead. This is trading a potential unlikely side effect for a large number of severe Covid cases in high risk groups. Edit: yes I'm aware they have only a dozen or so dead per week but that also translates to hundreds of severe cases, missed elective surgeries, etc. For what would most likel…
It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.
I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly.
I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
The sad part is that AstraZeneca chose to sell the vaccine at cost, making no profit. This amount of negative publicity with no good reason will make them (and others) think twice about such a gesture.
You say they chose, but wasn't this a condition that came from Oxford in negotiations?
"Citing the attack from Macron and unfounded accusations over safety and efficacy, Bell [0] said the company could re-think its philanthropic stance. “There’s a point at which AstraZeneca could just say, ‘you’ve got to be joking, we’re going to stop [charging cost price] now because we’re not getting any credit for what we’re doing.’ The share price has gone down, not up. We’re making more vaccines than everybody else. This is a safe and effective vaccine, but nobody seems to care,” he said this week."
[0]: Sir John Bell, the Oxford University professor who helped drive the vaccine’s development
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#76This is a fascinating example of cultural differences. I wonder if this provides some insight to which societies will be more or less likely to allow driverless vehicles, which suffer conceptually from the same type of trade off.
Nobody would be banning the AstraZeneca vaccine if it were the only one we had. But so long as alternative vaccines are available, there is a "why take the (very small) risk when you don't have to?" argument.
Driverless vehicles aren't a valid comparison. They're either safer than human drivers or they're not, something easily proven by monitoring and statistics.
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.
I think that's exactly it. There is a tradeoff to be made here with likely deaths on both sides, and the government is choosing much higher numbers of deaths because it looks better for them politically. That's immoral and cowardly. I don't see any way to justify the decision they've made logically.
This pandemic is basically this entire story. COVID deaths are much more visible than the missed cancers, the depression and drug abuse caused by lockdowns, so basically it’s an easy choice for governments, lockdowns are better politically.
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Slowely I'm getting the impression that a lot of decisions around AZ are politically driven. In Germany, the new recommendation is now to use Biontech for the second shot after AZ. In that recommendation, it is also stated that there are no studies nor data supporting that. Quite funny, because there is, to my understanding, a study taking place in the Uk for that. It is expected to be done by end of April. Someone h…
Complete nonsense. Do you honestly think the Danish medical authority gives a shit about the squabbling between the UK and Germany over AZ? To the point where they would even condemn people to death and put their careers at risk? I do not find that plausible at all. What I found plausible is that you are too gullible and do not realize that your "impression" was fed to you by the media, who definitely have a politica…
There are more poliical angles around AZ than just Brexit. Germany has a bunch of elections this year, for example. A lot of our screwed up Covid measures can be traced to a inner-party conflict about the Chancelor candidate for conservative party, Angela Merkel's government party at the moment. The same party that is up to the neck in a corruption sandal over mask contracts, and quite likely contracts for testing its as well.
No idea how the situation in Denmark is, so. Just one example how vaccines are used for political purposes in Germany, the Bavarian Prime Minister, Söder, and one of the two likely candidates for the chancelor candidacy, just placed a pre order for Russia's Sputnik V. The plan is to produce 2.5 millon doses in a plant in Bavaira by June or so. Never mention that Sputnik V has no EU approval, no study was submitted (what was that again with "faulty" AZ data?) and by June Germany will get up to 260 million doses the EU contracts.
EDIT: I read the 260 million in an article. Numbers from Statista don't back that up. And the EU isn't publishing any schedules. The supply chain guy in me is crying for a year now, first masks, now vaccines. Really frustrating. I really have to get a new job, right I have too much time on my hand it seems...
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why not allocate most of the Pfizer to the young and give the AZ exclusively to the older people?
It all comes down to guessing how to best convince the unconvinced to actually vaccinate. People usually react badly to getting "second-class medicine", if it is mandated. (Elderly people were asking, which vaccine they would get the good-one or the bad-one, literally). I would suggest to simply offer both to everyone and leave people the choice, if they want to risk a one-in-a-million chance of complications (for wo…
Correction: The risk is not 0 for men, only a fair bit lower.
Re: Denmark to permanently cease using AstraZeneca vaccine
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a real world example of a trolley problem. They're choosing to let a large group risk severe disease or death through inaction, rather than pulling the lever and have a small group be at risk due to their actions.
Slowely I'm getting the impression that a lot of decisions around AZ are politically driven. In Germany, the new recommendation is now to use Biontech for the second shot after AZ. In that recommendation, it is also stated that there are no studies nor data supporting that. Quite funny, because there is, to my understanding, a study taking place in the Uk for that. It is expected to be done by end of April. Someone h…
> a lot of decisions around AZ are politically driven.
Well, in the end "everything is politics" I guess. But one must also see it practically. In places where AZ is a small part of the vaccine strategy, skipping it just means a small delay. It's not a huge or risky decision to either stop using it or use it only in older groups.
In places where AZ forms the backbone of the vaccination strategy such as the UK, it's a much harder decision. The delay imposed by stopping general use of AZ means more deaths because it's a longer delay.
So different countries reaching different conclusions is natural.