How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation • Hacker News Board

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#71

Post by mc32 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

elmomle wrote: post #51

mc32 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying we punish the user, but rather find a way to minimize availability. Also, trauma is not always a cause for addiction. Lots of people suffer trauma and don’t get addicted, conversely we also have people with little trauma who get addicted.

https://silvermistrecovery.com/blog/2018/09/2019-guide-the-l... It isn't a 1:1 causal link--virtually nothing is. But there's very strong evidence that unprocessed trauma is one of the core drivers of addiction. It's constructive to think of drugs and addictive behaviors as emotional crutches. You don't help people with problems walking by making crutches illegal; you do so by focusing on treating the root cause, whi…

I’m sympathetic to your POV.

However, sometimes there is no root cause other than “Hyacinth had me try sniffing some glue and I got hooked”.

Sure, some kids can say “no”, but many give in to peer pressure and after a few times there is no going back.

I do agree with a good therapeutic environment, but relapses are common, so it takes vigilance and follow up and so on.

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#72

Post by nickik » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

retSava wrote: post #32

el_nahual wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the reality on the ground says that drugs being illegal does not actually make them unavailable. That much is clear! So the idea behind legalization is not "it should be easier to do drugs!" but rather: 1. It's already easy to do drugs, so how can we make it safer to do drugs? 2. Precisely because of drugs' illegality, extraordinary rents are collected by some of the worst humans on earth. Can we make drugs leg…

1) safer for those stuck in consumption patterns, yes. And safer on a whole by reducing the number of new consumers. An endorsement and social acceptance via legality is the wrong way I think. Legality would likely push people on the "I think it's bad for me, but I'm tempted to try, and since it's legal it should be ok safe" to the wrong side. 2) Those worst humans would still exist, still try to make money out of th…

> 2) Those worst humans would still exist, still try to make money out of the drug business. They would undercut prices

That's why we have all those traffickers and the mafia running super markets and bakeries, they are so good at running business that they can beat any capitalist enterprise.

And if you are simply referring to normal business, that do tax fraud, its the same problem as literally every other business. Are you against all business because people try to avoid taxes?

> are "the worst humans" expected to just stop being the worst humans

No, rather not give them a trade where being the worst nets big profits where there is opportunity for a lot of extra crime because the job is already criminal, so why does it matter.

> Look at cigarettes. It's legal today, but there are still scum exploiting the situation by black market selling probably dangerous tobacco that doesn't go through QA and regulatory checks etc.

What % of the cigarette market is that? Likely less then 0.1%. How many super rich successful black market cigarette millionaires are there?

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#73

Post by tibbydudeza » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #50

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #30

Lots of problems with modern Iraq can be blamed on the US invasion, and English-language media is inclined to connect issues with the war because that framing is accessible to their readership. But is there really so much of a connection here? Crystal meth epidemics have arisen among a number of peoples – white South Africans, Thais, in the US both poor Rust Belt inhabitants and some rather affluent gay subcultures,…

All of those places have something in common. They all fell from relative affluence or comfort. In South Africa, white people no longer had job guarantees. Iraq had a total collapse of it's society. And the USA has also had a decline or stagnation in middle class incomes.

Easy to make so it is very cheap and less risky to deal in than crack, coke, heroin which never caught on locally.

There has always been cannabis users but druggies would then juice it up by mixing it with Methaqualone.

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#74

Post by nickik » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #21

elmomle wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization is one key part; destigmatization is the other. Those who understand addiction, either first-hand or through research, understand that the root problem is not the drug/habit; the drug/habit tends to be the addict's best known way to sooth immense psychological pain. Shame drives addiction in deeper. So to actually help addicts, one needs to destigmatize the conversation, allow people to say "Hey, I'm in…

I’m not saying we punish the user, but rather find a way to minimize availability. Also, trauma is not always a cause for addiction. Lots of people suffer trauma and don’t get addicted, conversely we also have people with little trauma who get addicted.

> I’m not saying we punish the user, but rather find a way to minimize availability.

In 200 years history of drug suppression literally everything has been tried.

And yet, even in a high security prison, drugs are highly available.

If it can't be done in a max-security prison, how do you think it can work for a whole society?

What method of restricting supply has not been tried. The US has literally invaded other country to try to destroy supply bases. The military as whole division, billions spent on intercepting submarines.

Absurd high cost have been put on a dealer that is captured.

What is your solution to actually restrict supply in a meaningful way?

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#75

Post by KptMarchewa » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

kaesar14 wrote: post #27

wahern wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, the unemployment rate only began increasing in 2012: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SLUEM1524ZSIRQ Same pattern for total unemployment: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.UEM.TOTL.ZS?location... In 2012 it was as low as it ever had been in 20 years. So what began in 2012? ISIS? Syrian civil war refugees? Completion of U.S. military withdrawal? (All a consequence of the U.S. intervention, to be…

All 4? I imagine American occupation was "good" for employment while it was going on - providing a steady flow of income from soldiers and the military paying for goods and services while we were there.

US military always carries all the shit they use from US, so that effect would be rather miniscule on the "enemy soil".

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#76

Post by drran » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

el_nahual wrote: post #18

mc32 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is making it safer to do drugs manage addiction? Ok, so I don’t get adulterated drugs, that still doesn’t do anything for the addiction. Are we then going to actively discourage people from doing drugs? If so how? What effective form does that take?

Again, drugs exist and are available now . So you shouldn't think of the options as "drugs are legal and available vs drugs are illegal and unavailable". They are available in either case! Making drugs legal means that one can control the points and conditions of distribution. So one could require licensing, education, or even controlled application. Sure, you can take good, cheap, heroin, but you have to take it her…

Why we should care about drug addicts? They care about their drug only instead of our society.

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#77

Post by drran » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #74

mc32 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying we punish the user, but rather find a way to minimize availability. Also, trauma is not always a cause for addiction. Lots of people suffer trauma and don’t get addicted, conversely we also have people with little trauma who get addicted.

> I’m not saying we punish the user, but rather find a way to minimize availability. In 200 years history of drug suppression literally everything has been tried. And yet, even in a high security prison, drugs are highly available. If it can't be done in a max-security prison, how do you think it can work for a whole society? What method of restricting supply has not been tried. The US has literally invaded other cou…

Webcams reduced regular crime a lot. Artificial nose can do same for drug addicts.

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#78

Post by freeone3000 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

dls2016 wrote: post #63

freeone3000 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As prescribed, it's at a much lower dosage. Adderall is tuned in 10mg increments, and meth is sold by the gram . Moreover, you absolutely can get addicted to and have serious health problems from prescribed medication -- it's a balance of risk versus reward. A handful of people prescribed stimulants have suffered sudden cardiac death. The main difference here is modality of use -- taking something, once per day, in c…

> With a prescription, you also have a steady supply and no need to commit crimes to keep up your supply. It's almost like addicts are self-medicating and we should give them a legal, prescribed supply of medication. > Look at when the opoid crisis became a crisis -- it was when cheap, easy opioids stopped being available. What? In high school (20 years ago, Central PA) I knew zero people who used opiates. A few year…

When was drug abuse present, versus, when was drug abuse a societal problem?

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#79

Post by mc32 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #59

mc32 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think if we made them illegal use would go up or go down?

Did people stop drinking alcohol during prohibition?

That wasn’t the question, but rather, did consumption go down? I believe the answer was yes, it did go down but alcohol is so ingrained in society for so many millennia that prohibiting it will not shut off consumption.

Re: How Iraq’s crystal meth epidemic is ravaging the nation

#80

Post by bjourne » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 6:10 PM UTC

One reason for Hamas' rise to popularity was the drug epidemic in Gaza in the late 1980s. The Israeli occupation looked the other way as gangs sold illicit drugs to the Palestinians. People dependent on drugs makes for good collaborators and informants. Hamas made short work of anyone suspected of being a collaborator and of people in "immoral industries", i.e drug dealers, prostitutes, pimps, and sellers of pornography, often via public and brutal executions. It wasn't pretty but it curbed the drug epidemic.

Drug abuse is a good breeding ground for religious extremism. It's not that hard to convince people that "Western influences" are bad if it means that more people become drug addicts. It's not that hard to convince someone that they should fight for God if they spent the last ten years as drug addicts.