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MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

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Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. Even for ones that do, there's no standardized high school graduation exam nationwide.

> Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. So how do people fail to graduate high-school?

The class grades are made up of some mix of:

* Graded homework

* Papers/Project/Labs

* Midterm/Final Exam

The teacher chooses the exact mix per class, so it's possible you fail even if you ace the exams, or pass even if you fail the exams. This variability is why the standardized tests exist.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#72
post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

It can be permanent. In addition to the effort of removing standard tests, education reforms are happening left and right. San Francisco school union recently decided to remove fast tracks. The union will also delay the teaching of geometry to grade 9, which IMHO will make teaching physics and algebra really hard.

I can understand that the motivation of such reform is to improve equity, as numerous studies have shown positive correlation between family income and testing scores. Therefore, lowering the difficulty of challenging courses and removing requirements of standard tests appear to be a natural choice towards better equity. Besides, many of us do not need advanced math or STEM in our profession anyway, why spend so much time on STEM, right?

That said, I don't see how such reform will lead to more equity. Studying and taking tests are probably the most inexpensive activities out there. All that a driven student needs to learn well is a library, a good teacher, and a few like-minded classmates. And tutoring school does not necessarily make a difference, either. But with all the reforms, what would happen? Here is what I can imagine:

  - Tutoring schools will make more difference. Family with means will send their kids to 
    tutoring schools so their kids can learn geometry or algebra in grade 5 and have all 
    the time to study AP courses in high school. Who suffers? Smart kids from poor families. 
    Same goes for history, writing, English, and etc. 


  - Money will matter more. Families with means will send their kids to robotics camps, 
    science research labs, coding schools, professional sports coaches, and etc. 
    You know, things that poor families have a hard time to afford. With non-differentiating
    test scores, guess what school admission officers will look at? 
I really don't see how good intention in this case will help less privileged kids. Such reform is advantageous to my ids, as I'll simply send them to private schools, all kinds of camps, or tutoring schools. They will learn calculus in grade 7 or early if they are talented. They will have a bucket list of volunteering experience and so-called leadership proof in their resume. They will build their ML-powered robots or conduct their favorite chemistry/physics experiments in their private lab that I can help build, if they are interested. And in the worse case, my wife and I have no problem and plenty of time to home school my kids. Yet it still pains me to see potentially hundreds of thousands of kids who would get better chance but can't because of watered-down education.

And I'll be happy if someone could show me how wrong I am.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. Even for ones that do, there's no standardized high school graduation exam nationwide.

> Most high schools in the US don't have graduation exams. So how do people fail to graduate high-school?

I believe at age 16 the government can't force you to go to school anymore. So one would just stop going to class, putting in the "butts in seats" time and never finish the required classes to graduate. I guess that's basically what dropping out means

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#76

Seems like at the moment high-school students in the US have to do two sets of exams - their normal high-school graduation exams, and also the SAT or ACT. Is that right? Why don't they use the results from one for the other? Use SAT for high-school graduation, or use high-school graduation results for university admission.

Many US high schools have all kinds of weird, nebulous graduation requirements. I had to come up with forty or fifty hours of volunteer work and put together a giant 3" binder of work examples, extra-curricular awards, and other garbage that I had to present to a tribunal of teachers. Complete waste of time.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#77
post #21

On the one hand, it is ridiculous that one of the main metrics used in admissions is a glorified IQ test. On the other hand, it is ridiculous that we don't have a single commonly used standardized-exam that evaluates proficiency and expertise in the core curriculum. I know America has a serious NIH syndrome, but the situation could be improved overnight if every single public school adopted the GCSE/A levels or IB cu…

Not sure about the SAT, and maybe the test has changed since I took it, but the ACT was mostly a knowledge & skills test. Math: did you pay attention through at least high school trig? Reading: how literate are you? English: how well do you understand the mechanics of SWE? Science: Can you read intentionally-shitty graphs to extract the correct information (yes, seriously, that's what it was, not anything to do with science, really) and so on.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#78
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know test prep courses are a thing, and that the wealthy are the primary consumers of them, right? Pretty much everything in the USA is pay to win.

This is an oft-repeated meme, but I don't think it holds much water - the main value of SAT test prep is in taking a few practice tests, which you can do by yourself with a $20 book. You can't buy your way to a 2400, it takes being able to actually solve the problems. Otherwise, you'd see a lot more of them.

> You can't buy your way to a 2400

Well, no, since that would be 150% of the maximum score.

You can buy your way to the maximum score, and people have been doing it, but test prep won't get you there. (As you note, prep is worth nearly nothing in terms of score gains.) You need advance access to the answers, or a substitute to take the test for you, or something along those lines.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#79
post #58
post #13

> we do expect to return to requiring the SAT/ACT once it is possible for everyone to take them safely Fine with this being temporary. Much less fine with the schools who have completely abandoned the SAT/ACT in the name of equality while still considering things like personal essays and extracurriculars, which are way more liable to be gamed by the wealthy than the SAT.

I don't get why students need to be apply to be accepted. Why can't everyone go to MIT? Is there a scarcity on chalk boards, shitty chairs and cinder blocks?

Because the big money isn't in selling an education. The big money is in selling the credential.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#80
post #36

One question on my mind (as someone who has a master's degree and engineering degree and has never taken the ACT/SAT) is how kids will go about showing pure intellectual merit? Like let's say you grow up ok but you can't really afford to join the ski club or for a tutor and maybe you work in the evenings but you crush the SAT/ACT because you're incredibly intelligent. How will universities like MIT take that into acc…

The fundamental issue is that crushing the SAT/ACT is more of a reflection of “mom and dad got me good tutoring or prep” than it is intellectual merit. I “weaseled” my way into CMU via athletic admissions (I was an actual athlete, not a Lori Laughlin style one), but did very well at CMU once I got there. People who aced the SATs did not do as well. Fwiw I still did okay, 32 ACT score, but there were 35/36’s around. I…

A 32 is still 96th percentile, or a little better than "okay" for most Americans. In the future if you want to argue that ACT doesn't predict academic success it might be more effective to leave your own score and academic success out of it.
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