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Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

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Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#71

Post by meibo »

Causality1 wrote: post #67
meibo wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just means someone in charge made a bad choice during planning and either no dev or designer ever dared to speak up against it or many of them supported said bad choice.

Why is it a bad choice? A game set in middle age Europe has no more reason to foresee needing the ability to mod gay marriage into it than accommodating modding cell phones into it. It's not an insignificant amount for work just to include an anachronism.

Have you played this game and seen how much you can customize it?

What's an anachronism in a sea of many others, if you wish to have them in your personal save games. And if you don't, you stick to whatever is historically accurate.

Not having the foresight to be aware of this matter and the issues that come with it(going as far to be be especially exclusive) as a game studio in 2020 is what they should think about the next time they set out to make a game like this.

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#72

Post by staticassertion »

notsureaboutpg wrote: post #61
kergonath wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there any historical culture in which same-sex marriage was common or accepted? I can’t think of one, Christian or otherwise (though I can think of a couple of examples of same-sex people got married by subterfuge).

No there were not. The other reply confuses acceptance of homosexual activity with acceptance of homosexual marriage. The latter is a new concept, the former was common in many cultures (notably Ancient Rome / Greece). Homosexual activity cannot result in biological children so there was really never any society that considered anything like homosexual marriage until our own. The main reason for marriage was to contr…

Not to delve, but the article does mention a number of relationships that are explicitly comparable (according to the article) to heterosexual marriage, or are otherwise described as unions. There are multiple references to homosexual marriage and union.

I'm not sure that the points you're making about shared finances are particularly important, or even true, based on this. But I'm not a historian.

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#73

Post by xanth »

michaelpb wrote: post #58
kergonath wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there any historical culture in which same-sex marriage was common or accepted? I can’t think of one, Christian or otherwise (though I can think of a couple of examples of same-sex people got married by subterfuge).

Yep, many! Today's era is quit unusual in how few open gay and bisexual relationships are had by public officials (which are the unions that are typically best recorded). In many other historical periods across different regions, today's standards would be considered unusually heterosexual. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

Given that the game simulates 867 to 1453 it was much more of a rarity, don't get me wrong I'd love to have the feature but I'm glad they shipped core features of the historical simulation game and more than likely left it on the backlog.

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#74

Post by wtallis »

ttt0 wrote: post #26
p1necone wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were me I'd just let same sex couples impregnate each other, regardless of sex. Sounds like a hoot.

I'd also add furries and dragonkins while we're at it, because why not, it might as well be a fantasy game

I recall a Game of Thrones mod for CK2 that seemed like a very appropriate combination.

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#75

Post by notsureaboutpg »

staticassertion wrote: post #72
notsureaboutpg wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No there were not. The other reply confuses acceptance of homosexual activity with acceptance of homosexual marriage. The latter is a new concept, the former was common in many cultures (notably Ancient Rome / Greece). Homosexual activity cannot result in biological children so there was really never any society that considered anything like homosexual marriage until our own. The main reason for marriage was to contr…

Not to delve, but the article does mention a number of relationships that are explicitly comparable (according to the article) to heterosexual marriage, or are otherwise described as unions. There are multiple references to homosexual marriage and union. I'm not sure that the points you're making about shared finances are particularly important, or even true, based on this. But I'm not a historian.

The article is being too generous to these accounts. Here is an example: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_D...

In this account of the relationship between two men they are termed in quotes as "husband" and "wife" to imply sarcasm . They were not literally considered with seriousness to be married by their society the way we consider men to be able to do to each other now.

Marriage, in societies where it existed often served two functions: binding families and providing for the legal rights of children. Unions of lovers did not do either of these.

Many ritualized unions of a same-sex variety in history were of the latter type and those of the former would not likely have been seriously recognized by the outward society. There isn't a strong record of that anyways.

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#76

Post by phire »

josefx wrote: post #22
mabbo wrote: post #2

It seems odd to me. Paradox is a Swedish company, and Sweden is a fairly liberal country. Same-sex marriage was legalized in 2009, and even the Church of Sweden gave the go-ahead on performing same-sex marriages the same year. The game logic around this is simple enough that changing two byes fixes it, so it's not a technical issue. What gives?

Take a look at the screenshot of that same sex marriage, do you notice something odd? The gender symbols at the bottom are male/female not male/male. The patch only disables the gender check, it does not fix the game content or any other logic related to marriage. There are probably dozens of follow up bugs waiting, some of which will need new game logic and art to fix.

That is a good reason for why they haven't implemented the feature themselves.

But it's not a good reason for why they are blocking all discussion about a mod that implements the feature in a buggy way.

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#77

Post by xanth »

meibo wrote: post #71
Causality1 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a bad choice? A game set in middle age Europe has no more reason to foresee needing the ability to mod gay marriage into it than accommodating modding cell phones into it. It's not an insignificant amount for work just to include an anachronism.

Have you played this game and seen how much you can customize it? What's an anachronism in a sea of many others, if you wish to have them in your personal save games. And if you don't, you stick to whatever is historically accurate. Not having the foresight to be aware of this matter and the issues that come with it(going as far to be be especially exclusive) as a game studio in 2020 is what they should think about t…

And the game engine is from 2007 which likely built in many of these historically accurate constraints to reduce scope. Remember until recently this much more core functionality was broken; "Fixed looting not making you hostile to looted country if you’re a vassal"

https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Patch_1.3.X#1.3.1

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#78

Post by ekianjo »

krapp wrote: post #21
p1necone wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably slavish dedication to historical accuracy. Although were there really no cultures in that era that allowed same sex marriage? I personally wouldn't want a seemingly historically accurate (ish) game to present the churches of the age as being okay with same sex marriage when they weren't. Although being able to toggle it on in the settings would be cool.

>Although were there really no cultures in that era that allowed same sex marriage? No Christian cultures, obviously.

Did Buddhist cultures allow same sex marriages in ancient times?

Re: Legalizing gay marriage in Crusader Kings III with Ghidra

#80

Post by lostgame »

jandrese wrote: post #63
josefx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the screenshot of that same sex marriage, do you notice something odd? The gender symbols at the bottom are male/female not male/male. The patch only disables the gender check, it does not fix the game content or any other logic related to marriage. There are probably dozens of follow up bugs waiting, some of which will need new game logic and art to fix.

I have to wonder if one of the men will become pregnant and have a child once they are married.

You could use the excuse that they are transgender...but again, that probably only adds another layer of complication and abstraction, heh...
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