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Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

martin.kleppmann.com

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Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#71

Post by reasonabl_human »

sportsaw wrote: post #53

I love this: > In the Trellis project we experimented with a “time travel” interface, allowing a user to move back in time to see earlier states of a merged document, and automatically highlighting recently changed elements as changes are received from other users. The ability to traverse a potentially complex merged document history in a linear fashion helps to provide context and could become a universal tool for u…

I’ve always wondered why word processors don’t take this approach out of the box.... ‘resume_v2_2021_final_done.docx’ -> resume.docz using some wrappers around git seems pretty straight forward to me... and I’d be using it in a heartbeat

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#73

Post by darkhorse13 »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #50

PouchDB/CouchDB is great for this kind of software. Shameless self-promotion: I used it for thinktype[1], a note-taking app. [1]: https://thinktype.app

I still can't believe this paradigm of PouchDB/CouchDB did not get more popular. Seems very underrated to me.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#74

Post by oblib »

My latest version of my ezInvoice app has a local-first option. It's also offline first.

The user has to install CouchDB on their desktop PC to use the local first option. Basically they just use a different html file to access the local CouchDB instead of the Cloud based CouchDB.

The app is also offline first and doesn't use the internet at all unless you turn on the "Live Sync" function in the app's preferences.

At that point it's still local first but it syncs with my Cloud based CouchDB and users can access that by using a different url. Since Live Sync works both ways whenever the Cloud CouchDB is updated those changes are pushed to the desktop PC if it's connected to the internet, or as soon as it is.

Users can also make backups and snapshots of their DBs on their desktop CouchDB.

I released ezInvoice back in 2002 and this is something I've wanted to do since then. Feels pretty good to have what's needed to get it working.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#75

Post by CGamesPlay »

reasonabl_human wrote: post #71
sportsaw wrote: post #53

I love this: > In the Trellis project we experimented with a “time travel” interface, allowing a user to move back in time to see earlier states of a merged document, and automatically highlighting recently changed elements as changes are received from other users. The ability to traverse a potentially complex merged document history in a linear fashion helps to provide context and could become a universal tool for u…

I’ve always wondered why word processors don’t take this approach out of the box.... ‘resume_v2_2021_final_done.docx’ -> resume.docz using some wrappers around git seems pretty straight forward to me... and I’d be using it in a heartbeat

Word absolutely has this functionality, and it's about as complicated as git, which is why only people who use Word professionally use the functionality. It's just too complicated compared to using the file metaphor you're already familiar with.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#76

Post by rhacker »

anothernewdude wrote: post #72

I'm not convinced data can be owned.

If a doctor takes a picture of your wife's anus for a medical report, should that data be allowed to be saved and resent to anyone? Posted online? Distributed by one of those websites that lets you find people?

There are use-cases for data ownership, stewardship, management and security.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#77

Post by ashdev »

In section 2 it says - "In cloud apps, the data on the server is treated as the primary, authoritative copy of the data; if a client has a copy of the data, it is merely a cache that is subordinate to the server."

Exactly! Local copy is just treated as cache in those apps which offer offline support. They are called "Offline-also" apps, not Offline-first apps.

I miss those days when I could just buy the software and own it. Collaboration can happen in offline-first apps too, it's tricky but it can be done.

Everything is online-first web apps these days because of the reasons listed in section 3.2.1. There is one more reason for popularity of online-only web apps:

When startups are testing their idea, it's far easier to put together an online-first app than offline-first. It's easier to get traction comparatively because it just requires a browser. When they get some traction, then a desktop app is a low priority to them.

I want to bring back offline-first desktop apps back. I've already started with Brisqi[1] an offline-first personal Kanban app. Hope more people take an offline-first approach.

For similar reasons, I could write a whole essay on why we developers need to create a better open source cross-platform framework to develop offline-first desktop apps with permissive licensing.

[1] https://brisqi.com

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#78

Post by rklaehn »

Local first is often just plain the better technical solution.

E.g. you put a pin on a map to mark the parking spot, and want to share it with somebody standing right next to you. But it does not work because the connection to some data center 1000 km away is flaky. This is just plain bad design.

Or you want to print something or get two machines to interact. Any remote third party you bring into this interaction is going to increase latency, reduce bandwidth, increase the probability of failure, etc.

That is why we use the local first approach for factory shop floor software at actyx.com . You don't want your factory to stop because the link to the cloud is down.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#79

Post by gmueckl »

aklemm wrote: post #69
sportsaw wrote: post #53

I love this: > In the Trellis project we experimented with a “time travel” interface, allowing a user to move back in time to see earlier states of a merged document, and automatically highlighting recently changed elements as changes are received from other users. The ability to traverse a potentially complex merged document history in a linear fashion helps to provide context and could become a universal tool for u…

Google Wave?

Re-watch the initial presentation of Google Wave. This was a complex demo that tried to explain what Google Wave is step by step so that a pretty tech-savy audience could follow. And it took several hours to talk them through.

Now imagine teaching all of that to a less technology minded audience. It probably won't go well.

Re: Local-First Software:You Own Your Data, in Spite of the Cloud (2019) [pdf]

#80

Post by pdimitar »

oscargrouch wrote: post #63
pdimitar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to underestimate the pressure from the market. At one point the younger generation does not even remember there was a local-first software. Sadly the relentless efforts of the corporations are paying off. That doesn't mean people are okay with it. It means their choice is made for them.

Not just that, but there also a lot of cases that the local-first software will perform much better given the resources might be cached. If you mix the two crowds: the people that actually care with the people that will just want faster apps, you get a powerful bootstrap traction. Lets also not forget that things might just vanish and when we are able to collect them and make personal relations that make sense to us,…

> If you mix the two crowds: the people that actually care with the people that will just want faster apps, you get a powerful bootstrap traction.

Do we really though? Most people just buy a new phone, idly agree to all cloud sync stuff that the Android vendor has slapped on it and only notice "hey, I have 500GB free storage for the next 6 months!" and that's the end of it.

There is a market for local-first. Absolutely. But I question how big it is.

Maybe in corporate? If not there, I don't think you can make it big in that area. We at HN are a fairly negligible rounding error compared to most of the internet-connected humanity.

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