Why not mix in some speech, ala Talon or serenade.ai?
Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
71–80 of 112 posts
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#72Like other folks have said in this thread, there is no one size fits all solution to RSI and I would encourage anyone to seek out physical therapy first (or even just start doing strength training, like dead lifts).
As someone with a crazy ergo split keyboard though, I also share the author's intuition: floating the palms and hands allows for straight wrists, and bent wrists are probably the biggest culprit of typing related RSI. Floating the hands like playing the piano makes "proper" typing difficult though, because it incorporates significant arm movement.
So my conclusion after going down the rabbit hole on ergo keyboards is that... they probably don't matter too much (it's not like we have any data anyway). It seems likely most people can accommodate standard hardware in an ergonomic way by using a non-standard typing style: arms coming in at angle with straight and non-deviated wrists, hovering hands but without wrist flexion, and avoiding finger excessive finger extension using supplemental movement from arms. This would be compared to using non-standard hardware like a Kinesis Advantage or Dactyl-Manuform with standard or "proper finger movement only" typing style.
But to the defense of ergo keyboards, I think the above are not mutually exclusive. A sane physical layout reduces the amount of arm coordination required and a split design seems to have really helped improve the mobility in my shoulders, neck, and back along with general posture.
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#73In my early 20's I started working at an office job. About 6 months into the job I started getting this terrible pain in my shoulder.
Being in my 20's, it was surprising to get this kind of pain for no reason so I started to try and figure out why this was happening.
I found the answer this way:
- I realized that when I was typing, I was leaning heavily on my elbow
- Leaning on my elbow meant that my shoulder was being stressed as it was carrying a lot of my seated weight
- But why was I leaning? I figured maybe my desk wasn't level and I was compensating by leaning on my elbow
- I brought in a level and measuring tape and realized one side of my desk was 1.5" higher than the other.
The building I worked in was over 200 years old and I realized with some more measuring and level checking that the whole floor was "wavy". In fact, if I spun in an office chair instead of feeling like I was rotating around the axle, my head transcribed a circle due to the floor being slanted.
Moral of the story: it made me a believer that very small things (desk out of level, mouse pad a little too far, keyboard too close etc) can have surprisingly large effects physiologically.
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#74I’ve learned a lot about RSI over the past year, having spent about 8 months completely unable to type or use a mouse, trying dozens of things and talking to dozens of people. And the main thing I’ve learned is that every story is unique; the right thing for one person might be an absolutely terrible idea for another. Folks in the comments seem to be making pretty broad statements about what is good or bad, and I jus…
I totally agree, the prevailing RSI advice about posture and exercise and fancy chairs and input devices and taking breaks is not one-size-fits-all. In my case, Sarno's book showed me how my neurotic fixation on RSI was making it worse.
I wrote this comment in 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12990976. My RSI continues to be totally gone (it's been gone 14+ years now, the RSI started a couple years before that), and I never even think about it anymore.
If you have RSI and you are reading this, please try to keep an open mind. Not all cases are the same, and fixating on/worrying about the RSI constantly is not necessarily the best path forward.
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#75A lot of people really underestimate the impact that mobility and strengthening can have addressing issues with RSI. If you're struggling with RSI, consider going to physical therapy as your condition may be caused by a wide variety of issues that aren't obvious based on the pain you're having. My own experience was that I dealt with ulnar nerve RSI for about a year. During that time I wore braces at night and tried…
Yeah, referred pain is weird. When people have hand RSI the root cause is much more likely to be a shoulder/neck/postural thing rather than a hand thing. Its unfortunate 'carpal tunnel syndrome' has become such a widespread diagnosis when IIRC something like 1% of issues are actually due to the carpal tunnel itself.
To use a web analogy, its like having a broken button on a webpage and thinking it's a problem with the HTML (the hand) rather than with the server (the neck area).
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#76The advice about seeking out a physical therapist is great. Here's a quick thing you can try in your own, Google scalene trigger point release. That takes a minute per side and eases the pain for a few hours. I've shown this trick to quite a few with most experiencing the same benefits.
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes I spent a considerable amount of money to upgrade my workstation to be more ergonomic. But I still have a lot of things left to try. It kind of hurts to spend $400+ for a single keyboard though, haha. I have even thought about buying a Mac just to be able to use the built-in Voice Control feature. But they are really expensive, and the new Mac Mini didn't have enough ports for my monitors.
My project, Talon, is free and cross platform. It might have some options that can help you: https://talonvoice.com Some blog posts: - https://www.joshwcomeau.com/blog/hands-free-coding/ - https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2021/01/18/Reaper-Day... - http://nsaphra.github.io/post/hands/ Some talks: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKYWt8B9hgs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuRkGkf5HU - https://media.ccc.de/v…
Thanks for the tip. I've come across Talon before, but never tried it. I can't use it at work because it would drive my co-workers insane, but maybe I could learn it for use at home. Can the commands be easily switched to non-english words? Also does it work with any language? I mainly use JS, HTML, CSS, Rust and C#.
One of the reasons why I was thinking of buying a Mac to use Voice Control is because it also enables dictation, which helps a lot when chatting and writing emails. It also supports my native language.
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#78Years ago, I was getting horrible pain in my right wrist and forearm and after process of elimination I discovered it was from moving back and forth between the keyboard and mouse. Switched to a keyboard-only workflow (vim+i3+vimium) and the pain went away completely.
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#79A few years ago I started having RSI issues. At a certain point I couldn't even comfortably hold a phone or glass with my right arm. There was no position I could hold my arm where I didn't feel pain.
I went to a physiotherapist / mensendieck for therapy, which kind of worked. The real 'cure' for me was a small Wacom Bamboo pen tablet and screens at eye-level. Not having to look up or down. Coding with a pen tablet is a bit weird at first, but you get used to it. And I love the fact that I can work again. I spent a few weeks at home on sick leave back then. Take precautions! Slow down if you feel something weird. You really don't want to get it.
One good practical tip I remember clearly is that your lower back may do some work to sit straight, it's the upper back / shoulders that must be able to relax completely. This is the opposite of bending over your laptop.
And as the author mentions, the body needs time to heal. My arm was literally very cold compared to my other arm, I had cramped muscles which reduced blood flow. Stretching (guided by a therapist / professional) helps a lot as well. I could feel my arm warming up after each session.
To this day I'm suffering from RSI, but it's manageable as long as I work with my pen tablet. If I sit on the couch for 30mins with my laptop, my arm starts acting up immediately.
Re: Typing, RSI, and what I do differently
#80This seems like a good thread to ask - are there any split keyboards that have the "shared" keys (5/t/g/b and 6/y/h/n) on both sides? I have never found home-row typing comfortable and often move my hands around while typing, which means the hand I use to hit a letter can change from word to word. I wouldn't recommend this to anyone else, but it works for me and it's made enjoying split keyboards difficult.