Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#71

Post by u801e » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#72

Post by sradman » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

How should multinational conglomerates like Apple and Google handle sovereign nation states that violate The Golden Rule?

I think the best case scenario is to deescalate the situation while also minimizing the impact of the violation; I don’t have a clue how best to achieve this lofty goal.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#73

Post by jariel » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #22

FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…

This is not a very god argument and it that can be used to justify the worst possible actions including genocide.

The 'problem' here - is that outside actors are forced to become 'complicit' with all sorts of laws that are potentially an objectively 'bad'.

By removing app restrictions by Apple and Google - we remove the complicity, making the issue squarely one of Pakistani authoritarianism.

With Google, at least there are ways to install apps without their app store, with Apple, obviously not.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#74

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

matthewaveryusa wrote: post #38

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

Indeed, you cannot solve political problems with technical solutions -- It goes both ways though

I don't think FAANGM having control is a technical solution -- it's a political solution too, albeit with a (semi-) public company in the position of power.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#75

Post by umvi » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

> Would it be fair if England declared Catholics "unChristian" and banned their use if the term?

I think it's slightly more nuanced than that. For example, England should be able to declare whether a given group of people are members of the Church of England (organization). Wherever a centralized authority exists, that authority should have the power to declare whether or not someone is a member of the organization. The Catholic church should absolutely be able to declare some rogue sect that claims to be Catholic "unCatholic".

However, you are absolutely right, where no centralized authority exists no one should be able to classify others' high level beliefs. Whether someone is Jewish, Christian, Islam, Atheist, etc. is not up to anyone but the individual adherent. If you believe in Jesus Christ and believe you are following his teachings, you are a Christian and no government or conglomerate of sects should be able to say otherwise. If you believe in Mohammed and the tenets of Islam, no government or conglomerate of sects should be able to say you are not a Muslim.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#76

Post by Arun2009 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

fmajid wrote: post #27

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis

Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#77

Post by gadders » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform.

All Ahmadiyya muslims have to do is start their own company to make mobile phones and probably their own search engine as well.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#78

Post by 542458 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

kop316 wrote: post #54

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

So may I ask your opinion of this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_d...

I'm not sure exactly what the correct set of actions for Apple is in the Pakistan case, but I don't feel these two are all that similar.

In that case Apple broke no laws. The FBI very likely did not have the legal power to compel Apple to break the phone’s encryption. The FBI issued orders to Apple, Apple legally disputed the orders. Apple's actions in disputing unjust orders is allowed under US law.

Versus this case where the Pakistani government does, unfortunately, have full authority to pass and enforce this law as harshly as it wants.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#79

Post by sofixa » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

FriedrichN wrote: post #28

adventured wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…

That would be nice if phones were open and free, but they aren't. For many, especially in developing nations, the phone is the way to access the internet. If Google/Apple wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the world of mobile phones, people would be free to choose which app repo they use or which apps they sideload. But sadly, they are not.

How would they be free? A country like Pakistan could just as easily block any service that provides content they deem illegal ( as is the case here) via the ISPs( SNI sniffing, DNS blocking, IP blocking) that can't disagree.

If anything, Google and Apple have more leverage than F-Droid or similar because Pakistan can't block them without significant backlash, and needs their cooperation, which is at least debated ( point in case, the article says a few of the apps weren't blocked by Google).

And furthermore, anyone can install any apk or app store serving apks on Android devices.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#80

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 3:05 PM UTC

gadders wrote: post #77

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform. All Ahmadiyya muslims have to do is start their own company to make mobile phones and probably their own search engine as well.

[deleted]