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Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

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Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#71

Post by pmiller2 »

dejv wrote: post #54
omneity wrote: post #16

CollapseOS provides the computation substrate, but is anyone thinking about the kind of computations post apocalyptic communities / individuals might be needing to run? I imagine things like ledgers, basic simulations, farming yield prediction... I couldn't find design documents besides the technical constraints it is willing to be compatible with.

Most of the machinery both industrial and in home are now computer controlled. Things like furnaces, CNC machining centers and lathes.

I'm looking around at all my home "machinery," and I don't see anything essential that is computer controlled. I have an ordinary gas furnace heating it; a plain old gas stove for cooking; a refrigerator that's got a plain analog temperature control; a boring, mechanical toilet based on technology that's hundreds of years old; and simple, mechanical valves that control the flow of water through my pipes.

The things I see that are computer controlled are luxury items, at best: TV, camera equipment, security camera, microwave, blender, laptops, tablet, NAS server, air purifier. This does leave out my car, but I don't expect cars are going to be playing a big part in any realistic post-apocalyptic future, anyway.

Most of that stuff could also be replaced by lower tech versions without much loss of functionality: analog TV, film camera, mechanical blender. I think even the microwave could be replaced by a lower tech version of itself without much loss of functionality. You could even have an actual, wireless remote for the TV.

I would miss my DSLR, laptops, tablet, and air purifiers, but I'd gladly give them all up if it would actually be a meaningful thing to do. As it is, getting rid of all the DSLRs and laptops in the world isn't going to save us. Very few individuals in this world have any real power to do anything about the most likely collapse scenario (climate change), and most of those people have a vested interest in not doing anything to help (American energy company CEOs).

Edit: a word

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#72

Post by Meph504 »

Guthur wrote: post #67
pjc50 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> energy isn't so much a technological concern as it might be a political concern This is what irks me about these kinds of "collapse fantasy". Somebody described the apocalypse novels of John Wyndham (Day of the Triffids etc) as "cosy catastrophe", and that very much applies here. The laser focus on technological detail-hoarding while having blinders on to any consideration of the politics of the situation, or what…

Yeah, the brief thinking I've ever done about the collapse in these scenarios is to potentially band together with some like minded friends and try to setup some subsistence group with hunting, light farming and security. Firearms are highly regulated where I am from which makes the first and last a little more difficult than they potentially could be. I really never gave it that much thought to be perfectly frank. T…

Firearms are highly regulated where I am from which makes the first and last a little more difficult than they potentially could be.

In a collapse they won't be, and those willing to seize them, will be at a great advantage, police dept. military bases, even countries whose population don't have access to an abundance of guns doesn't mean there isn't an abundance in the country.

In almost any scenario where government collapse can occur, people will become the largest threat to survival.

The problem with security against other humans in the long term, is that we are damn clever, and determined. Even with an overwhelming firepower, if you are in a fixed location, people will find a way.

As for Hunting, it can be done without firearms, Crossbows and Traps can be highly effective, and simply constructed. What you have to think about is how much and what sort of wildlife their is around you, and how rapidly they will be depleted by others.

As they say, Hell is other people, best bet since the time of the plague, you want to survive go where others aren't.

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#73

Post by pmiller2 »

bosco_tm wrote: post #63
wallacoloo wrote: post #19

Love this sort of thing, though less for the post-collapse aspect and more for the dependency-free nature, which provides a certain amount of freedom. I don’t like that seemingly all accessible bootstrapped projects still rely on non-bootstrappable silicon (like the 8086 here). Does anyone know of an effort to bootstrap the actual computational substrate (i.e. the silicon, or something which serves the same purpose b…

Could you explain why the 8086 is "non-bootstrappable silicon" please? Or what you mean by "bootstrap the actual computational substrate"? Thanks.

I think those are both referring to the fact that without some very sophisticated manufacturing processes and equipment, it's not possible to build an 8086 to begin with. Once we're at a point of societal collapse, we would, presumably, need to begin re-climbing the tech tree at a lower level and work ourselves up to 8086s again. So, we would need to start with computers we could actually build in order to get there.

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#74

Post by herogreen »

londons_explore wrote: post #68
crocodiletears wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most reasonable collapse scenarios I could imagine, energy isn't so much a technological concern as it might be a political concern. Slightly scarcer perhaps, but there's a ubiquity of old alternators, plenty of shit to burn, and I guarantee the extractive industries will be among the first to come online, if they ever went out in the first place, and can be coaxed to function in a degraded state without globalize…

> Computers are much more difficult to bring back In all post apocalyptic scenarios I can imagine, there will still be billions of already existing computers. Rebuilding humanity will fulfill its computing needs by mining for a MacBook. Some will survive whatever natural disasters hit. As the supply of working ones dwindles, repairers will thrive. The skills and equipment necessary to repair waterlogged or crushed co…

Unless the apocalypse is due to a solar flare similar to the Carrington event, which could destroy a lot of computers.

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#75

Post by Guthur »

Meph504 wrote: post #72
Guthur wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the brief thinking I've ever done about the collapse in these scenarios is to potentially band together with some like minded friends and try to setup some subsistence group with hunting, light farming and security. Firearms are highly regulated where I am from which makes the first and last a little more difficult than they potentially could be. I really never gave it that much thought to be perfectly frank. T…

Firearms are highly regulated where I am from which makes the first and last a little more difficult than they potentially could be. In a collapse they won't be, and those willing to seize them, will be at a great advantage, police dept. military bases, even countries whose population don't have access to an abundance of guns doesn't mean there isn't an abundance in the country. In almost any scenario where governmen…

Crossbows require a permit as well :) Can't have the population undermining that monoploy on force ;)

But I get your point.

Like I said I hadn't given it much thought, though if one could get a sustainably large commune group with reasonable access to weaponry it would hopefully be a deterrent for most small groups.

I'm in Australia which rather large. Clean water is the likely the most valuable commodity. It would be interesting to see how much of the population would actually survive such a collapse.

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#76

Post by vermilingua »

pjc50 wrote: post #66
crocodiletears wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most reasonable collapse scenarios I could imagine, energy isn't so much a technological concern as it might be a political concern. Slightly scarcer perhaps, but there's a ubiquity of old alternators, plenty of shit to burn, and I guarantee the extractive industries will be among the first to come online, if they ever went out in the first place, and can be coaxed to function in a degraded state without globalize…

> energy isn't so much a technological concern as it might be a political concern This is what irks me about these kinds of "collapse fantasy". Somebody described the apocalypse novels of John Wyndham (Day of the Triffids etc) as "cosy catastrophe", and that very much applies here. The laser focus on technological detail-hoarding while having blinders on to any consideration of the politics of the situation, or what…

That’s the western HRE. The ERE only survived until the 1400’s.

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#77

Post by ThinkBeat »

Thinking about this is interesting if you go with premise the author uses. (to the extent I understand it. Which might be entirely wrong)

The farther we progress techologically the less can be salvaged in the aftermath of a collapse.

I have done a bit of manual soldering earlier in my life. This was simple stuff but I switched out memory chips. Switched out ROMS (only way to update some machines)

Primarily, zx81 (that you could get as a kit) zx spectrum and then what I consider my first real computer the Atari ST.

I have not performed any such surgery since my ST.

Looking at motherboards if various types we have now requires a lot more precision to “fix”

If you found 3 broken motherboards for the latest version of an I9 it would I think be difficult to cannibalize. Parts to get one working motherboard.

One these old computers it would be possible.

I presume that is one of the reasons the author talks about the z80. I am very familiar with the generations Sinclair used.

And there are genuinely massive amounts of them in various less sexy roles as controllers for electric appliances.

I wonder how far in the Intel PC evolution one could realistically salvage and make Frankenstein computers out of.

Storage would be a problem. Hard disks are complicated and prone to fail more so after a collapse I am sure.

Getting production of floppy drives going is not trivial either

Say the collapse hapoens in 20 years there will not be easy to find huge collections of 3.5 5 or 8 disks

Casette takes are also getting rare. Though some appear to think it retro and it is making a comeback now.

VHS tapes would be nice.

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#78

Post by layoutIfNeeded »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #52
stolenmerch wrote: post #5

Genuine question: if we're in a collapse scenario that is so devastating to the global supply chain that we're scavenging microcontrollers, how do we generate electricity to power them? Solar panels and batteries don't last forever and would presumably require the same or similar supply chain as the microcontrollers. This is a cool project regardless, but in such a catastrophic scenario it seems easier to just give u…

Singer foot pedal sewing machine style power for electronics would be one possibility. Of course those would have to be scavenged too given the lack of skilled blacksmiths these days.

A top male athlete can sustain 500W power for an hour. I wouldn't have high hopes for your sewing machine generator.

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#79

Post by pjc50 »

Guthur wrote: post #75
Meph504 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firearms are highly regulated where I am from which makes the first and last a little more difficult than they potentially could be. In a collapse they won't be, and those willing to seize them, will be at a great advantage, police dept. military bases, even countries whose population don't have access to an abundance of guns doesn't mean there isn't an abundance in the country. In almost any scenario where governmen…

Crossbows require a permit as well :) Can't have the population undermining that monoploy on force ;) But I get your point. Like I said I hadn't given it much thought, though if one could get a sustainably large commune group with reasonable access to weaponry it would hopefully be a deterrent for most small groups. I'm in Australia which rather large. Clean water is the likely the most valuable commodity. It would b…

The "sustainable" "collapse" (again, what does this mean? end of imports including oil? large scale political turmoil with no clear winner?) level of Australian population would probably be larger than Aboriginal pre-invasion times (estimated 700k?) but not much more than that if you lose access to mechanically pumped water. It's not a very habitable place but the introduction of European crops and animals has irrevocably improved this. You're still looking at the likely death of nineteen out of every twenty Australians in this scenario.

(actually, having thought about this, the "collapse" scenario I'd be most worried about in Australia is average temperatures above human survivable levels plus wildfires. Not so much a collapse as a thorough incineration)

Re: Collapse OS – bootstrap post-collapse technology

#80

Post by mauvehaus »

emteycz wrote: post #45
Anarch157a wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can scavenge car's alternators and use a water wheel or windmill to turn it. Alternators can work for a decade with minimum maintenance. Just have five or six stashed, just in case. They can supply 40A at 12V, or using a transformer to up the voltage, 4A at 120V.

Alternators are also trivial to build by hand.

Sure. If you have the input materials. If you're at the point of having to build an alternator by hand rather than just taking one off a car, I'd like to know where you're getting magnet wire, the machined shaft, the various rotor and stator parts, the end-bells, and the ball bearings.
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