Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t think time spent would matter if someone took the deliberate action of clicking “Accept.” It’s like arguing that you didn’t read a contract before you signed. You still signed. I’m not arguing in favor of TOS. I just don’t buy this. The “I do not agree,” method reminds me of the tactics of “sovereign citizens.” They try to game things via highly specific language. People think they can loophole the system, bu…
> You still signed Prove it was me that signed. Prove it was me that clicked accept.
Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
71–80 of 174 posts
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
A few contracts I have done in the past I got the terms through and had serious issues with so just ended up blacking out and initially it or adding in an appendix. I don't think I have ever seen a company say a thing about a unilateral change to the contract I just made without negotiation, they like most simply people sign it and accept it without reading it.
One one contract I asked for some changes. The company said that they've dealt with hundreds of companies who agreed with the contract and didn't see why it should change. I pointed out that the contract had several places where it referred to other documents I must agree to, referenced by URL, and the linked-to documents didn't exist.
The classic example is a company wanting me to work on some open source software and potentially put in patches on it but having a clause in their contract that assigns all rights to the software I produce to them.
They don't often read them themselves to see if they are sensible or correct before sending them. The entire situation is really dumb, no one anywhere in the process seems to read them.
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
For those reading, be aware that while signing "I do not agree" is borderline fraudulent, at least it's not clear user impersonation ie identity theft. There are people who do similar things but sign "Daffy Duck" or even "Barack Obama". Someday they'll be in for a surprise visit.
Not true at all. No one is coming for a visit ever. You could be known as Daffy Duck or Obama or call yourself that. There is no legal requirement to use a legal name. What sites do if a legal name is required is to require a credit card and get the info from there. Clicking,I do not agree is not borderline fraud. Turning off javascript and not getting a tos prompt is not fraud either.
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#74If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…
I don’t think time spent would matter if someone took the deliberate action of clicking “Accept.” It’s like arguing that you didn’t read a contract before you signed. You still signed. I’m not arguing in favor of TOS. I just don’t buy this. The “I do not agree,” method reminds me of the tactics of “sovereign citizens.” They try to game things via highly specific language. People think they can loophole the system, bu…
A contract requires consideration, and a meeting of the minds. If you can't even request a change to the terms for your agreement, it isn't a spiritually valid contract. It's the difference between actually being prepared to negotiate, and making an ultimatum. ToS's are often presented in the forms of ultimatum's with no alternatives. That I do not accept.
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#75Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really don't know what would have happened. There was nothing worth objecting to, though it was certainly worth reading to understand the boundaries while accessing their system (i.e. it was for course use). Even if there was anything objectionable, the student may have to drop the course (rather than flunk it). Overall, I view blindly signing ToS as the foundation for the situation we see today: these agreements e…
In university, I was involved in a situation that still haunts me. We had a couple Linux servers allocated to our multi-year project design team. I ended up as de facto systems admin. One of the younger team members asked me if he could use one of the machines to compile homework for another course. Given that the machine wasn't critical, I said certainly! (Applauding his initiative) A week later, the department sys…
This is the part of the story where I really did a double take. This sys admin originally emailed you about cpu utilization, right? It's not like you didn't have their email or hadn't been in contact before.
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then they will lose users, though.
Would’ve been my thought too. Yet look at what happened to EU GDPR cookie rollouts.
If a TOS is important enough to a company that they're willing to impose a two hour waiting period on customers, I'd say that's their prerogative. It would likely be effective in getting many users to read the agreements.
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#78If a website knows I didn't really read a contract, can they claim I am bound by it? I like to hope that the time-spent-reading is logged somewhere. Should it come up in court, Website.com would be required to disclose their logs which would show that I spent all of 1.35s reading their terms and conditions, most of which was spent scrolling. Another puerile hack of mine is to sign a document with the name "I do not a…
It should also make a record showing that you never saw the agreement and did not click the button. Maybe it could aggregate these records to show that for a given website there are thousands of users who have never seen the TOS.
Given that most people seem to think these click-through agreements are already pretty weak from a legal standpoint, I wonder how much more it would take to make them completely worthless.
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#79On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…
It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely g…
In my career, I’ve negotiated
- a severance package in my offer letter from a company that said, “we don’t offer severance packages as a matter of policy.”
- a sign on bonus from a company that said, “we don’t offer sign-on bonuses as a matter of policy.”
- a longer expiration period for startup options, as well as partial acceleration of vesting in the case of a significant liquidity event, from a company that said, “we can’t modify our standard equity agreement papers.”
- immediate full vesting of matched 401(k) contributions from a company that said, “our policy is that matched contributions only vest after 1 year.”
- ability to expense my own Linux workstation, which I could keep, in the offer letter, from a company that said employees are only allowed to be issued Mac laptops.
- explicit extra section in the offer letter stating that any IP created by me using only my personal equipment and personal time was my sole property and was explicitly not subject to any part of the employee handbook dealing with ownership of IP.
In all these cases, the conversation usually started out with me being gaslit about all this being impossible or my expectations being crazy. But after sticking to my requirements, eventually it normalized out into a sincere discussion.
I should add, all these examples came from very large companies except for the case of the options expiry and acceleration.
I also gave a hard “no” to many companies over the years that wouldn’t negotiate on topics like these, and I can say I don’t regret it one bit. There’s never been a case where I said no to a job offer over inflexibility on all these topics and then later regretted it.
Re: Terms of Service; Didn’t Read
#80On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the…
It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely g…
For example when buying a property in the UK, the soliciter will be the one parses the legal documents. It's crazy to think that normal people are expected to fully understand these, and it doesn't surpise me when they just blindly sign them. At the end of the day they want the thing and carry on with their lives - throwing caution to the wind.