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Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

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Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#71

Post by maxerickson »

zbrozek wrote: post #3
blakesterz wrote: post #2

It's hard to tell why you might want to listen to this from just the title: "But Taiwan has also been taking a relatively experimental approach to the pandemic with technology. Like working with civic hackers to code its way out of the pandemic. Today on the show, we dive into Taiwan's pandemic policies and ask: Would the U.S. ever take a similar approach?"

Things like the "where do I get masks" map don't seem antithetical to personal privacy the way a contact tracing tool is. That's pretty low-hanging fruit that we didn't appear to make any attempt to pick.

Contact tracing isn't antithetical to personal privacy. I suppose you can say it compromises absolute personal privacy, but so does someone seeing you in a store, so it's not very interesting.

Singapore has certainly decided to show how bad it can be, but the root of that is an authoritarian mandate, not the contact tracing itself.

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#72

Post by maxerickson »

petertodd wrote: post #54
rhacker wrote: post #15

I don't fully get the title from the content, but perhaps NPR is saying that we should have a different control structure for health related maters... Like for example in Star Trek the only people that can override the captain is the doctor. For medical emergencies they can basically force some course of action. It seems in most countries the top brass is making decisions even though they are not technically qualifie…

That different control structure is why Sweden didn't lockdown. The health authorities were in charge, and pre-covid, lockdowns, masks, etc. were not recommended by mainstream health authorities as tools to deal with pandemics.

Lockdown is a terrible word for the measures taken in the US too. The most consequential orders were business closures and there was little or no enforcement of orders directed at individuals.

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#73

Post by closeparen »

sradman wrote: post #52
timr wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taiwan has had a total of 815 cases and 7 deaths [2] in a population of 23 million. They also closed their borders to China in January , and in March to the rest of the world. The US, by comparison, has had 7.2M international arrivals in 2020 -- and that's just non-citizens: https://www.trade.gov/visitor-arrivals-program-i-94-data Point being: it's easy to overstate the importance of measures like these. If you had…

They also carefully managed the quarantine of the first set of returning travellers. They were sent home with a kit that included a thermometer and a set of surgical masks to use and public health officials contacted them daily via SMS and/or voice.

Assuming they could have their own bathroom in a sequestered area of the home. Otherwise required to stay in a hotel room.

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#74

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

m_mueller wrote: post #18
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #14

Those are some really incredible Covid numbers for Taiwan, just, incredible . Having spent time there and seem some poorer areas and very dense areas, 7 deaths is unbelievably great.

Think about what that implies regarding the difference a competent government makes. Half a million dead, maybe even more, in the US alone. Granted, Taiwan was in some way lucky to have had SARS to get the acceptance needed to install their emergency law, but still, others had too and did scratch. Switzerland even gave up its stockpile of pandemic supply two years ago.

Are Germany and Italy equally or more incompetent to USA?

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#76

Post by sampo »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #12
tt433 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll address why one would listen: to learn about some ways not to be the epicenter of a pandemic ever again.

> not to be the epicenter of a pandemic Are we talking about the US? In what metric is the USA the epicenter? In deaths per capita? In infections per capita? I’m pretty sure US leads in testing per capita. I’m not being snarky, I really don’t know if you are referring to USA, and in what way.

> I’m pretty sure US leads in testing per capita.

US is maybe 3rd, behind United Arab Emirates, and UK. But countries like Iceland and Korea that used aggressive test-trace-isolate to get the epidemic in control, they did get the epidemic in control so they don't have a continuous need for large daily volumes of testing.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#77

Post by jbay808 »

devy wrote: post #69
Ericson2314 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the current Taiwanese government is truly one of the world's finest, and the US governance one of the worst. One of the reason I enjoy reading https://pedestrianobservations.com/ and other in depth discussions of public transit is that it's really quite the barometer for overall civic function. The rate of new public transit is also a fine derivative, and as such even more "low latency".

> Yes the current Taiwanese government is truly one of the world's finest World's finest in what regards? Have you seen what the conflict resolution[1] they chose in parliament meetings? > and the US governance one of the worst. Are you also aware that United States has almost 14x of the population than Taiwan's? The governance of 330 million people coming from many different backgrounds and ethnicities around the gl…

With 14x the population, isn't the cost of a given mask-finder app like the one the OP pointed out amortized over 14 times as many taxpayers?

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#78

Post by mncharity »

uptime wrote: post #61

Nice to see Audrey Tang getting props. There was a similar interview with @miyagawa on rebuild.fm that is a good listen.

There are also quite a few interview videos, and assorted articles.

One fun bit from an interview on handling disinformation, was the comment that Taiwan has living memory of the trauma of SARS lockdown, and of its fight for press freedom. Making them disinclined to go back, to lockdowns, or to use takedowns for disinformation. Forcing other solutions. Like using humor, to defuse misinformation, and to increase precaution compliance.

A very sharp, nice person. Fun to work with. Was active in the perl and haskell communities. Her focus shifted some years back to civics tech. Emphasizing open source, open data, radical transparency, voluntary association, digital democracy, and more.

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#79

Post by qlk1123 »

qlk1123 wrote: post #59
eric_khun wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I really enjoy at Taiwan is the bike sharing system they've put all around the country. Liking it at a point where I've wrote an essaye about it[1]. It's cheap, everywhere, and built on a really high standard [1] https://erickhun.com/posts/taiwan-youbike-bike-sharing/

However, in most cities the trafic is just so bad that riding a bike on the road is risking your own life.

I get downvoted for telling the truth.

Disclaimer: I am Taiwanese. We have been doing well handling the COVID-19, but we did far worse on traffic accidents prevention than our neighbors.

The design of Taiwanese Roads leaves no room for bikes and passengers. Taipei does this better because it has MRT and so U-bike is widely used there. Other cities are not so lucky.

Re: Bringing civic tech to Taiwan's coronavirus pandemic response [audio]

#80

Post by graeme »

f430 wrote: post #56
vkou wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all of our current response assumes the Chinese Communist Party is capable of being transparent and honest. Actually, all of our current response, up to this point assumes that if we half-ass our response to the pandemic, it will go away. "What China is doing" has largely stopped being relevant to anyone outside China in early/mid-February. As of today, China could have zero people testing positive, or a bil…

A simple litmus test here is: "Do you genuinely believe at face value China's statement that this virus originated from outside China" If the answer is yes, then you also believe the statement "China has zero cases since it stopped reporting them". Our responses are based on the numbers reported by the CCP, if you realize that there is now tens of millions of suddenly deactivated phone plans in a country where the sm…

Look, it’s clear China lied about the virus early on, tried to cover it up, etc

But what accounts for this compulsion to argue that they therefore lost control like the west. You can’t hide widespread outbreaks. Iran failed to. Russia failed to.

There are millions of Chinese outside the country with relatives outside. Vast economic trade networks. Satellites scanning every inch of China every day. Witness the exposés on Uighur concentration camps despite intense Chinese effort to hide them.

Life in China appears to be....mostly normal virus wise. And multiple other countries achieved the same. It doesn’t strain credulity to believe China mostly contained it.

I could believe China has somewhat more cases than they say, but it’s simply implausible that they have a raging epidemic.

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