Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays • Hacker News Board

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#71

Post by ianai » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

hannob wrote: post #36

telotortium wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not in the US, but in both France and China, to name two countries I've been to, speed cameras were obvious on the highways and actually sent out fines.

There's a difference between having a speeding camera every now and then on the highway or consistently enforcing speeding limits. I don't have a statistic on this, but my gut feeling would be most speeding happens in residential areas with low speed limit, and enforcement in many places is basically nonexistent.

In my experience, speeding is prolific and not tied to speed limit. I’ve read it’s actually tied to visual or physical cues the driver perceives as making speeding riskier or safer. Narrower lanes or walls are associated with slower speeds.

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#72

Post by gus_massa » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #62

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we wanted to actually enforce speed limits it would be a trivial matter to have google forward the relevant information. So then you get a speeding fine for being a passenger? Wouldn't people just turn off their phones? > Of course, if we really care, it would be trivial to limit all cars to a particular mas speed while on public roads. This is useless because most "speeding" would be within the limit for the co…

>> if your vehicle detects the limit wrong Welcome to one of the most basic and most difficult problems for AI-driven vehicles: What is the speed limit? Temporary limits, work zones, school/park zones based on sunlight, weather, children/workers present or not, emergency vehicles beside road or not ... it is complex but also something every driver manages every time they get behind the wheel. While it is possible to…

It's interesting to compare this with the subcomments in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25545467 with some interesting interpretations like

> It is unsafe to drive the speed limit if everyone is going 10-15mph over the posted limit.

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#73

Post by dawnerd » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:39 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #66

dawnerd wrote: post #60

So if a car stops charging for whatever reason (fault, someone unplugs, finished charging) they get fined too since they're not actively charging? Seems like a system with more potential problems than it solves. In general I'm against any system that automatically fines people.

Most charge points charge extra if you are sitting in the bay but have completed charging anyway as I understand it. I also think that for safety reasons you cannot just unplug a charging EV car without stopping th charge first (i.e. a child cannot just walk up and knock the plug out etc). If there is a fault in the charger, then I expect a "smart" parking spot to deal with that. To be honest, the better approach in…

Completely agree with the completed charging is a bad move but that problem is solved with idle fees.

Also you absolutely can remove a charger while its going and I've had it happen multiple times on my M3 when charging at a L2. I do get a notification but like.

But yes, spot on just put the chargers where no one wants to park. They keep installing them right at the front of stores and wondering why people ICE them.

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#74

Post by _v7gu » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #50

notauser wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cycle lane on Kensington High Street (a major London East-to-West route) actually sped up car journeys. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/01/removed-lond... When it was removed the study "calculated that average trip times eastbound increased from 5min 39sec to 8min 14sec, with those westbound rising from 5min 48sec to 6min 27sec."

Trip times, but how many trips were taken? Make the roads painful/expensive enough and the one car still using them will have a very quick journey. Conversely, filling up the bike lakes with lots of bikes will increase bike trip times. I prefer to measure the efficiency of a road by the number of people it carries across all types of vehicles. Bus lanes over bicycle lanes imho as buses can more more people per hour d…

That makes no sense: second hand effects are always weaker than first hand effects. Why would the cars not use the road if the journey is quicker?

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#75

Post by blackboxlogic » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #61

dwighttk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it would be a trivial matter to have google forward the relevant information. oof... Glad Google doesn't have that info about me.

Got bluetooth on your phone? Some cities are using bluetooth IDs to measure traffic flow, a phone or car's bluetooth ID as it passed sensors and calculating the speed based on the time taken to cover the distance. This isn't used for speed enforcement, they don't match the IDs to individuals/cars, but it certainly could be. https://www.econolite.com/products/software/bluetoad/ "Advanced Traffic Management Systems Blu…

Most Tire Pressure Monitoring systems also broadcast a unique ID that can be used to derive traffic patterns.

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#76

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #67

sandworm101 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> if your vehicle detects the limit wrong Welcome to one of the most basic and most difficult problems for AI-driven vehicles: What is the speed limit? Temporary limits, work zones, school/park zones based on sunlight, weather, children/workers present or not, emergency vehicles beside road or not ... it is complex but also something every driver manages every time they get behind the wheel. While it is possible to…

In the UK at least, it's relatively simple. If it's a red circle with a number in it, that's the speed limit - anything else is advisory. In my experience, cars with built in sign readers do an exceptional job of working out the current limit (more reliable than me, certainly!).

So no temporary work zones in the uk? What is the rule if the sign isnt there/visible? Do you then get to race through an obvious construction zone?

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#77

Post by gambiting » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

88 wrote: post #63

gambiting wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>In the long term, most people won’t have private vehicles You see, I don't believe this point at all, and I'm yet to see a convincing argument why it would be true. It would already be cheaper for me to take an Uber to work rather than own my car yet the convenience of having your own personal space that is mine far outweighs the savings. Also anyone who has children and knows the insane amount of stuff that babies…

I don’t imagine private vehicle ownership will disappear entirely. It will just become even more of a luxury than it already is. When autonomous vehicles halve the cost of an Uber/Lyft journey, many more people will weigh up the costs/benefits of private vehicle ownership and decide it’s not for them. Different services will compete based in part on the luxuriousness of the interiors and the frequency at which they a…

>>When autonomous vehicles halve the cost of an Uber/Lyft journey, many more people will weigh up the costs/benefits of private vehicle ownership and decide it’s not for them.

That's kind of my point - this won't happen, because Uber is already at rock bottom prices. For me to take it to work is about £10. That can't cover anything about the journey and is clearly heavily subsidised by Uber. That cost isn't going down to £5, it's just not going to happen. Just like when people predict that since flash memory prices keep falling down, you will be able to buy a 1TB pendrive for 5 cents. That's not going to happen because you do have the minimum costs of production and transport that aren't going anywhere even if the chips themselves are free.

And if people aren't taking Uber instead of their own cars for these frankly ridiculous prices then I don't see why they would simply because the cars drive themselves.

>>Different services will compete based in part on the luxuriousness of the interiors and the frequency at which they are cleaned.

The same principle should apply to taxis and it just doesn't. I live in a medium size UK city and every company, every brand, has crappy cars. Only price matters, nothing else and Uber Lux is not an option because you're waiting 40-50 minutes for one, that's just not acceptable.

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#78

Post by ogre_codes » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #5

paledot wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not parking spots. Don't park next to a gas pump if you're not putting gas in the car, even if it has an internal combustion engine.

I did exactly that this morning. I put gas in my car, paid at the pump, then walked in to buy a drink. I certainly wouldn't do that if people were waiting for the pump, but the option is there and used by drivers regularly.

Not sure about these particular charging stations, but the big problem isn't people parking in a spot for 3-5 minutes while they pop into for a side. The problem is people who park in a charging spot and go shopping at the mall or grocery shopping for 45 minutes.

It's no difference from using the only or last pump at the gas station and go spend 15 minutes browsing magazines, you are being an ass.

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#79

Post by ClumsyPilot » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #15

kwhitefoot wrote: post #8

Would be better to spend the money that this will cost on fitting a simple domestic socket in every parking bay. That we even my Tesla will gain 13 km per hour of charging.

I'm still eagerly awaiting explanation on how this is going to work with terraced houses where there's about 40 houses on each side and people park how and where they want, and most importantly where the local council barely has enough money to fix the worst potholes. But suddenly they are going to dig up a 300 year old street to put down enough cabling and charging points for every car. My question is "with what mon…

"My question is "with what money"."

This is a good question, we know that total cost of ownership of the charging network for cars is massively lower than that of petroleum infrastructure. So the problem is not shortage of money, but alighning incentives and investment. I believe this needs to be done through a large-scale national program, where central govermnet provides granta for modernising cities for efficiench: that includes charge points, insulation and enegy efficiency, etc. All those measures result in long-term savings, and we have record low interest rates

Re: Smart spaces will fine petrol car owners illegally parking in electric bays

#80

Post by ogre_codes » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #3

ultimoo wrote: post #2

Not sure what's so surprising/interesting about this (I don't have a subscription to read the full article). This nugget in the introduction seems to summarize the tech behind this -- > Sensors installed in electric bays can be used to detect the presence of a vehicle and whether it is being used to recharge the car battery.

So it will fine an electric car that parks in the bay if it isn't charging? These are not really parking spots anymore. They are "charging bays". That's cool. Just remember not to park your electric car there with a full battery. I guess if your battery is full, by the time you drive around a while looking for another spot it will be low enough that you will be allowed to use the bay. The few times I've tried to char…

> Perhaps there is a market for a defeat device, a plug that simulates an electric car, like those HDMI/VGA simulators used to trick motherboards into thinking they are attached to a screen. It probably wouldn't need much of a resistor to simulate minimal charging rates.

EV parking isn't that premium or common where this would be valuable. Also, this kind of anti-social behavior is a good way to get your car keyed when someone rolls up and needs 10 miles of power to get home and sees a jerk in a non EV in the only charging spot.