Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 97 posts

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#71

Post by walto2 »

SeanLuke wrote: post #67
jdontillman wrote: post #4

Interesting. I agree that the article is an exaggeration. It could be argued that the DX7 had a significant negative musical contribution. Oodles of sounds at the expense of musical expression. The musician became alienated from the process of making the sound. The keyboard player's job moved from playing the piano or organ to coming up with all the accompaniment parts that aren't guitars. And the DX7 was way too dif…

> FM synthesis, as such, was not new. The Buchla synthesizer featured it in the 60's. But the critical feature of FM synthesis that made it usable as a musical element was linear FM. Early synthesizers (like, I presume Buchla's) sported "FM" but it was exponential due to volt/oct. > John Chowning refined the concept, moved from frequency to phase modulation, and brought FM into the digital realm. ?? Chowning's paper…

> A second-order digital filter requires what, about 4 stores, recalls, and multiplies per sample?

This is true today using something like the Chamberlin form for a state variable filter. I don't think that level of optimization had been discovered yet in the DX7 timeframe.

Also, for adequate quality you want to oversample at least 2x, preferably at least 4x.

And 16 bits usually won't be enough headroom in a digital filter for good audio quality. Too much truncation.

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#72

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

ratww wrote: post #34
musicale wrote: post #6

I am a huge fan of FM synthesis popularized by the DX7, but the DX7 is only one of many highly influential synthesizers, and FM is only one of many influential synthesis approaches including modular, subtractive, additive, sampling, wavetable, hybrid, phase distortion and various forms of wave shaping, physical modeling, and others. I would rank many other developments such as modular synthesis (e.g. Moog - think Swi…

IMO the DX7 sound was kind of a fad and a dead-end in terms of evolution and influence. Both the sound and the music it contributed to are relegated to nostalgia those days. Its popularity in the synth world was quickly eclipsed by Roland-303s and Korg M1s after some mere 5 or 6 years of production. People were very keen to move to anything else and it sorta gave FM a bad rap for a while... Also, Synths like Prophet…

Korg's new OpSix is a very successful reinvention of six-op FM and a very nice-sounding synth. It's really quite impressive and also much easier to program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6X4QSP0NpY

The real issue is that the synth universe has contracted around a relatively small number of "classic" synth sounds. You have the Moog bass, the supersaw pad, various dreamy pads, various EDM plucks. the TB303 squelch, Oberheim brass, various dubstep pseudo-vocal woobs and buzzes, various clockwork-like sequences, and so on. There are maybe a few hundred of these sounds, and to music consumers they all sound like "synth."

Even with vintage analog, the space of potential sounds is much, much bigger. But the number of people who are real sound design virtuosos - as opposed to patching up some kind of raspy randomness on Eurorack - is tiny.

It's so much easier to treat sounds as presets or as imitations of the "classics" - which are often imitations of imitations - instead of approaching sound design as an imaginative exercise in mood and association.

So that's why some analog synths have legendary status. The promise is a legendary sound without having to do much work. And that's a very boring reason to play with synthesizers.

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#74

Post by moogly »

It would be a crime to have an article about the DX7 and not mention one of the most famous DX7-slingers: Jens Johansson

https://youtu.be/Ry_AP13ylVk?t=1147

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocpi_saZQak&t=1390

https://youtu.be/6CJHt37ya88?t=33

Also a fellow geek. Happy to see his old page still up and running: http://www.panix.com/~jens/sect-index-brief.par

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#75

Post by usrusr »

scoopdewoop wrote: post #19
Exmoor wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree that the DX7's sound is really dated has honestly really negatively impacted some of my favorite songs recorded in the the 1980's [0][1], but I really cannot think of an specific instrument as distinctive and widespread as it. The Telecaster and Stratocaster were very popular, but it's very tough to pick them out in a recording from other types of electric guitars. Hammond Organs are distinct and popula…

I'd say that roland drum machines and bass synths would be up there, especially in the past 30 years.

I think that there is a big difference in how easy it is to capture the, I don't know, "general musical identity" of a TB or TR with a much less constrained drum machine or bassline synth. FM synths like the DX7 are notoriously difficult to control, it's as if they were deliberately amplifying the tiniest differences.

If a piece of music can "sound Roland x0x" even if it was made on an entirely different process and any arguments about possible lack of an actual Roland in the production is strictly the realm of nerd nitpicking. Everyone else simply enjoys (or doesn't, but not because of lack of synth authenticity). But if a musician goes for "that FM sound" chances are the result will be very different depending on what actual synth is used.

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#76

Post by tomduncalf »

scns wrote: post #53
ratww wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the TR-808 is the only one that might qualify. Only? No way! :D The Roland TR-909 is also extremely popular and was considered the sound of techno and house even after the TR-808 started to fade outside hip-hop. In the mid-90s it was one of the first drum machines to start being cloned by new manufacturers due to the demand. The bass drum is still used as the foundation for a lot of EDM. It never went away.…

Agree with you on the 909 and especially the 303, the synth that birthed the acid genre and is still in use to create new music, check out Tin Man Neo Neo Acid. Hard disagree on Plastikman being a musicians musician though. He was beyond huge in the 90ies, saw a guy with a Plastikman tattoo covering his whole back. Richie Hawtin went on to become one of the top DJs in the world. One year he played on four new years e…

Also check TM404, who does very good music in the Tin Man kind of style, maybe a bit more “dubby”, using classic Roland gear (303 etc)

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#78

Post by alisonatwork »

ratww wrote: post #65
alisonatwork wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct that synth music as a genre existed before the DX7, and that synths were used in popular songs even going back into the 70s. But what this article is discussing, and what most people discuss when they talk about the DX7, is how its sales dwarfed that of any synth that came before it. It didn't just become a piece of equipment used by major studios in countless hits across many different genres, it als…

I'm not really disputing sales, I'm more disputing the claim that it changed music or made synth music mainstream . Synth music was mainstream before the DX7. And I don't really remember non-musicians talking about the DX7 the way most prog music fans (and also some Clockwork Orange fans) seem to know Moogs. Or Hammonds. 80s pop music fans don't seem to be the kind to do reminisce about synths. About 909s and 303s, l…

On the DX7 thing, I expressed myself poorly, I didn't mean it made synth music as a genre mainstream, but I do think the original commenter was correct to say that it changed how synths were used in music simply due to it being so affordable and versatile. Now instead of cover bands having additional members or multi-instrumentalists to play brass or fiddle or whatever, they could just have the keyboard player fill that role too. With the DX7 it became "good enough" for a single synth to cover all of those sounds. It unlocked a door that later on the M1 and many other sample-based synths walked through.

On the 909/303, I don't dispute they were incredibly influential in the rave scene, especially in the 90s. I am one of those people with a 303 tattoo so I know very well what a reputation they had. But also I have some perspective on how small and dynamic that scene turned out to be in the greater scheme of things. Most of the ravers I know from back in the day couldn't pick a 303 in a song and don't even listen to acid or techno music any more.

I think a good comparison to an 808 is a Theremin. Lots of people, even people who don't listen to electronic music or hip-hop know the names of these instruments and can probably pick one out of a song. I'd see the 909 or 303 more like a Strat or a Tele - still very influential and recognizable to people who are interested, but perhaps not so much in the mainstream consciousness.

But this is all opinion just based on anecdotes, so I am open to the idea I might be overestimating the cultural impact of one bit of gear or the other.

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#79

Post by SeanLuke »

walto2 wrote: post #71
SeanLuke wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FM synthesis, as such, was not new. The Buchla synthesizer featured it in the 60's. But the critical feature of FM synthesis that made it usable as a musical element was linear FM. Early synthesizers (like, I presume Buchla's) sported "FM" but it was exponential due to volt/oct. > John Chowning refined the concept, moved from frequency to phase modulation, and brought FM into the digital realm. ?? Chowning's paper…

> A second-order digital filter requires what, about 4 stores, recalls, and multiplies per sample? This is true today using something like the Chamberlin form for a state variable filter. I don't think that level of optimization had been discovered yet in the DX7 timeframe. Also, for adequate quality you want to oversample at least 2x, preferably at least 4x. And 16 bits usually won't be enough headroom in a digital…

Well, remember the DX7 was 12 bit.

Re: Yamaha’s DX7 synthesiser changed modern music

#80

Post by tenebrisalietum »

Exmoor wrote: post #16
jdontillman wrote: post #4

Interesting. I agree that the article is an exaggeration. It could be argued that the DX7 had a significant negative musical contribution. Oodles of sounds at the expense of musical expression. The musician became alienated from the process of making the sound. The keyboard player's job moved from playing the piano or organ to coming up with all the accompaniment parts that aren't guitars. And the DX7 was way too dif…

I would agree that the DX7's sound is really dated has honestly really negatively impacted some of my favorite songs recorded in the the 1980's [0][1], but I really cannot think of an specific instrument as distinctive and widespread as it. The Telecaster and Stratocaster were very popular, but it's very tough to pick them out in a recording from other types of electric guitars. Hammond Organs are distinct and popula…

The Roland TB-303--definitely unique--for a while there in the late 80's and through the 90's seemed like it was everywhere in any electronica/techno-based song.
Post reply on HN