Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

yannigroth.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 115 posts

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#71

Post by fian »

brnt wrote: post #20
soared wrote: post #3

I spent some time learning the creative thinking process from an IDEO employee/teacher while in school. One of the early steps is defining your problem by interviewing consumers, which seems like where the misstep occurred. Being an avid cyclist with nearly no friends who bike, I've seen that they are not intimidated by "technology". They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool wi…

Dutch person here. The thing you foreigners don't get is that cycling shouldn't be regarded as a sport. All your problems with cycling stem from that misconception.

Australian person here. When the summer temps are routinely over 30C and winters have many rainy days, cycling in casual clothes doesn't work except for only very short distances.

Most commuters in my city that ride more than 5km to work have adopted at least some lycra as part of their kit. It handles sweat better in summer and can be rinsed of sand then spun and air dried in winter, so you aren't getting into cold wet gear for your ride home.

My city commonly has a sea breeze with a wind speed over 35 km/hr in summer. A lot of committed cycle commuters end up adopting road/racing bikes simply due to it being more efficient energy wise. Riding a hybrid or MTB into/across the sea breeze is significantly more fatiguing.

Many people here also cycle casually for exercise. These are more leisurely rides specifically for fitness. It is rarer for people to ride to the shops, restaurant or a friends house. Why? because they don't want to turn up sweaty in summer or wet in winter.

Note that cycling in general has grown in popularity in the past decade here, regardless of the above:

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/6237-cycling-participation...

Australians are a sports mad bunch. We have had the Tour de France televised on a free-to-air channel for over 20 years now. Since the early 2000's this lead to many more people becoming interested in road cycling, especially men. This resulted in more cyclists on the roads (especially MAMILs). The increased number of cyclists on the roads, has in turn lead to more people being inspired to get on they bike for a leisure ride or to try cycling to work. Prior to that many people I spoke to would cite having to ride on the road as a big factor in deciding not to try cycle commuting as they perceived it as too dangerous.

So cycling as a sport has had a big part to play in getting more people cycling in general over here.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#72

Post by TulliusCicero »

random5634 wrote: post #51
redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

I made a pretty concerted effort to bike (I used to bike to public transit every day at an old job and loved it). At my current job I'd have to go through a very loud car tunnel without enough space for bikes. I've tried it a few times - just not workable. You have to ask - is this commitment worth dying over? Having your lungs filled with crap from being in an enclosed space with cars? Having your hearing killed. So…

Yeah, infrastructure seems like the #1 difference.

The truth is, even somewhere considered reasonably bike friendly like Germany, bikes are still clear second class citizens compared to cars, in terms of transportation investment. In terms of quality of infrastructure and amount of space allocated in cities, there's just no contest there.

And in the US, it's downright pathetic. The general attitude of city governments when it comes to bike numbers amounts to, "we've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!" Pointing to the clear success story of Vancouver BC actually putting forth a serious effort and getting results will get you nowhere, they'll keep on muddling through and feigning confusion as to why nobody wants to use their fragmented, dangerous bike network composed mostly of door zone bike lanes that suddenly end whenever it was inconvenient to continue dropping paint on the road.

I've lost track of all the painted bike lanes that suddenly disappear and then show up again 50m later because cars needed a dedicated turn lane right there, or the times the bike lane curves and yeets itself into the sidewalk with no warning. Even a quick glance at Google Maps with the bike lane layer on makes it immediately clear how badly bike networks are almost always implemented there.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#73

Post by riversflow »

dheera wrote: post #35
redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

Yes, this. We need BIG changes in cycling infrastructure. My old bike commute in the Bay Area involved stupid shit like this: https://i.imgur.com/YajWMoY.png Having to constantly switch between pushing along sidewalk and waiting ages for pedestrian lights, dealing with broken road sensors where I had to wait for a car to come behind me and "rescue" me so the light to turn green, having to go back and forth in zig zag…

Wow, you did that every day? Controversial opinion to consider, if you have the attitude that traffic laws are only for cars and serve only to inform bicyclists of the expected behavior of cars, riding in the Bay Area becomes much safer and faster. Habitually running red lights is important as it gives you an open road and a red light behind you. Also I always filter to the front(which I think is legal), abuse cross walks(I.e. get off my bike to stop traffic and walk it across a pedestrian crosswalk, also legal I believe). I biked in the Bay Area for years with that strategy and never had a problem, during work hours on week days I could beat cars handily on short trips. Some people will say this gives biking a bad name, but I think bicyclists getting hit by cars is a far bigger problem for the PR of cycling.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#74

Post by donjoe »

fian wrote: post #71
brnt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch person here. The thing you foreigners don't get is that cycling shouldn't be regarded as a sport. All your problems with cycling stem from that misconception.

Australian person here. When the summer temps are routinely over 30C and winters have many rainy days, cycling in casual clothes doesn't work except for only very short distances. Most commuters in my city that ride more than 5km to work have adopted at least some lycra as part of their kit. It handles sweat better in summer and can be rinsed of sand then spun and air dried in winter, so you aren't getting into cold…

Isn't Australia enforcing helmets since the 90s which led to a decrease in overall bicycle use?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmets_in_Australia

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#75

Post by SomewhatLikely »

random5634 wrote: post #51
redelbee wrote: post #24

Increasing ridership can come from tech but I think it’s much more likely to come from better and more bike-centric infrastructure and norms. Separated bike paths, bike storage, showers at offices/work, etc would all make it much more likely for someone to decide to bike. We could tell people: Decide to bike and save money. Decide to bike and save health. Decide to bike and save the environment. We can tell people th…

I made a pretty concerted effort to bike (I used to bike to public transit every day at an old job and loved it). At my current job I'd have to go through a very loud car tunnel without enough space for bikes. I've tried it a few times - just not workable. You have to ask - is this commitment worth dying over? Having your lungs filled with crap from being in an enclosed space with cars? Having your hearing killed. So…

I'm enthusiastic about all the safety features going into cars over the next 10-20 years. We may be able to ride safely in traffic once most cars are able to recognize and avoid cyclists.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#76

Post by auxym »

saagarjha wrote: post #65
dashundchen wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All that to address a practically non-existing problem: no one really has a problem learning how to use bicycle gears. It's definitely easy to learn once explained, and every enthusiast knows - but as a cyclist living near a popular bike route, I see a lot of casual riders who appear to have no idea how to use their gears. The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land, and y…

> The most common thing I see are riders with the cranked up in a high gear on flat land Wait, is this not what you are supposed to do? How do you go fast then?

Well, yes, but you need to accelerate first. Just like you don't accelerate a car from a stop light in fifth gear.

I hang out on some cycling subreddits and they commonly get questions from new cyclists that are totally clueless about how gears work. Some of them have it it completely backwards, ie start in a high (slow) gear and progressively shift down to a low (fast) gear as you get up to speed.

I always thought it was intuitive, but I guess I also got my first 5 speed bike around 7 years old or so, I can't really remember. I do remember having an RC car with 2 speeds Ang getting the principles pretty quick: gear one would accelerate faster but top out quick, while gear 2 had slower pick up but higher top speed.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#77

Post by donjoe »

brnt wrote: post #47
soared wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, Casual biking cannot exist when you have to tolerate being 12 inches from a 2 ton death machine going 45 MPH.

I agree, I have lived abroad in such circumstances for a number of years. Local cyclists were hard to convince that they were not very good at advocating the bicycle as a mode of daily transport. Getting cars under control is certainly the first thing that must happen, but cyclists running red lights and being worried about their 'gear' are a nuisance everywhere. They are no more tolerated in the Netherlands than out…

That's interesting. Reducing overall traffic speed would render most traffic lights obsolete. Traffic lights are only necessary in order to allow heavy machinery going >30mph in dense areas.

I think we will have to ask ourselves the question in the future: do we want heavy machinery at high speed in populated areas including red lights for all other means of transportation - or do we want populated areas with no/almost no traffic lights and faster traffic for foot/cycling traffic?

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#78

Post by enriquto »

soared wrote: post #45
EpicEng wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are misunderstanding my point and injecting your own dislike for bikers where it isn't relevant. Am I? You typed this, not me. >They are afraid of looking like an idiot. If they ride with me I look really cool with a slick bike and low profile gear, while they are riding a walmart bike in baggy shorts with a dumb helmet, while visible to hundreds of people in cars. How exactly did I misinterpret that? You think…

I am sorry that the clothing cyclists wear illicits so much anger in you.

> I am sorry that the clothing cyclists wear illicits so much anger in you.

By "cyclist" do you mean "roadie"? This is a fairly narrow view; most cyclists use bikes for commuting, not for sport. I consider myself an avid cyclist and I find lycra kits extremely ridiculous; for my commute I just use regular work clothes. I'm actually a bit ashamed to use a bike when I cross these fat idiots with obnoxious colorful clothes on their carbon bikes, as I don't want to be identified with them in any way.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#79

Post by riversflow »

maccard wrote: post #61
brnt wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I have lived abroad in such circumstances for a number of years. Local cyclists were hard to convince that they were not very good at advocating the bicycle as a mode of daily transport. Getting cars under control is certainly the first thing that must happen, but cyclists running red lights and being worried about their 'gear' are a nuisance everywhere. They are no more tolerated in the Netherlands than out…

As a cyclist and driver in a city, cyclists running red lights is one of those things that people talk about like it's a massive problem. It's not cyclists blowing red lights at busy junctions, if they did that they would be killed here instantly. It's cyclists trying to go when there isn't any traffic going, or they're competing with pedestrians. Yeah you get the occasional asshat, but you get them in cars too, and…

>it’s cyclists trying to go when there isn’t any traffic going.

Bingo, the safest time to cross on a bike is when there aren’t any moving vehicles in the intersection, and your senses tell you there aren’t going to be any more, regardless of the color of the light. Apparently I’m that asshat and will continue to be as long as I’m sharing the roads with large steel blocks. I also advocate for anyone else cycling in the US to be an asshat too, because I don’t want them to die.

I drive too, but I seriously don’t get why people care about bicyclists running a red, what’s going to happen? You have a much better ability to hear and see on a bike. You can’t accelerate anything like a car. It’s safer for everybody for them get away from the cars at the light.

The last thing I want to do is accelerate alongside a bunch of high powered steel blocks with flesh bags at the controls.

Re: What caused Shimano's Coasting-program to fail? (2010)

#80

Post by anfilt »

brnt wrote: post #47
soared wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, Casual biking cannot exist when you have to tolerate being 12 inches from a 2 ton death machine going 45 MPH.

I agree, I have lived abroad in such circumstances for a number of years. Local cyclists were hard to convince that they were not very good at advocating the bicycle as a mode of daily transport. Getting cars under control is certainly the first thing that must happen, but cyclists running red lights and being worried about their 'gear' are a nuisance everywhere. They are no more tolerated in the Netherlands than out…

Sigh in my state of Idaho cyclists are allowed to go through red lights. They function as stop signs for cyclists. Also stop signs are yield signs for cyclists. This was done to get cyclists out intersections faster. You cant accelerate as fast a car. Also most collisions with cyclists happen with cars at intersections. So this was done to reduce the time cyclists interact with cars. As well as reduce technical violations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop

Post reply on HN