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An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

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Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#71

It's funny how brilliant people like Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer were so intentionally stupid, because they were blinded by their own religion of "Everything Windows". It really makes you think how many others are blinded by this type of religious, dogmatic thought pattern. I'm sure there are many that we just don't hear about, including Zuckerberg, Pinchai, Musk, etc.

I imagine that they see the market fitness landscape using the same perspective that helped them hill climb to where they are. It's one of the reasons why disruption is a thing.

You might criticize this, but their perspective helped them punch through to where they are today. (Founders, at least. Not sure about hired CEOs like Pichai and Ballmer.)

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#72

It's funny how brilliant people like Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer were so intentionally stupid, because they were blinded by their own religion of "Everything Windows". It really makes you think how many others are blinded by this type of religious, dogmatic thought pattern. I'm sure there are many that we just don't hear about, including Zuckerberg, Pinchai, Musk, etc.

Leaders making decisions that are wrong (alongside plenty that were right) - well, that’s part of leading. Being called “intentionally stupid” on a message board - well, collect your points as they come, but I don’t buy it.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#74
'He tells us: "Eventually somebody would come back to you with your idea – they would say, 'Hey, you know, this doesn't need Windows at all'. And you have to control your urge to fucking kill them, because you've been telling them that for two years and now they finally come up with it like it's their idea. But that's the Jedi mind trick." '

OMG. I learned this a few years ago working in a corp environment with stubborn senior people with big egos. Basically, to get one of these types on board with your idea you have to find a way to convince them the idea was originally theirs. Sounds strange I know..

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#75
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more complicated than that. A lot of the code in the NT kernel running on XBox was written specifically for the console. The filesystem drivers, the TCP/IP stack, the HAL, and possibly other components were rewritten from scratch for XBox specifically. It wasn't just locked down, a significant portion of "Windows" was entirely missing, and a decent chunk was replaced with new, Windows-incompatible code.…

My reading of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_system_software + https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MinWin was that it was more like an embedded device that does in fact use Linux as the kernel but throws out the userspace and runs busybox + custom code, or even further like https://gokrazy.org/ - at which point it is Linux, but ... I mean, there's a reason why people don't think of Android as being a Linux system.

It's way less Windows than Android is Linux.

They took out the idea of processes for instance. A single executable runs at a time, and it's dynamically linked against the kernel and running in kernel space. There are no system calls instructions used, just normal call instructions that get fixed up on load.

USB, network, and graphics stacks all live in the executable, not the kernel provided by the box (despite everything running in kernel space).

I've been writing a Rust based devkit for the Original Xbox recently and it feels more like uCOS than Windows.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#76

'He tells us: "Eventually somebody would come back to you with your idea – they would say, 'Hey, you know, this doesn't need Windows at all'. And you have to control your urge to fucking kill them, because you've been telling them that for two years and now they finally come up with it like it's their idea. But that's the Jedi mind trick." ' OMG. I learned this a few years ago working in a corp environment with stubb…

This is the way. L+1 thinking.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#77
post #11

The Xbox operating system does base on Windows though. It's just locked down in some areas and lacks some higher level builtin programs of Windows and has a different launcher/DE. It's a half-lie at most. Also, the parts of Windows that Xbox does ship with are the most important ones for Microsoft shareholders. Nobody would want to edit their documents from their Xbox. That would in fact be harmful because some peopl…

I’ve had coworkers who were on the original Xbox team and they told me that the OS was not Windows. One of the things about the Xbox OS is that the OS itself gets a fixed timeslice each frame to do whatever it needs while the game is running, in order to make it so the game can get the rest of the frame to run. This sounds to me like a decision that has far-reaching consequences. I’m sure that it shares plenty code w…

Hmmm. So I estimated too much Windows in Xbox's OS. Thanks for your anecdotes.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#78
> "You'd have to sit in a meeting with Bill, and he's frighteningly brilliant. People throw around the word 'genius' all the time, and the way people say 'genius' is not accurate if you've met somebody who is a genius – somebody who, when you meet them, it seems like aliens are whispering in their ear because there's no way they could know these things otherwise. This is a different kind of a thing, and Bill's like that.

This pretty much describes the guy. I was at Microsoft during the final years of BillG being very hands-on with most core products (pre-lawsuit). I really wish I had worked with him more, but here is my anecdote that speaks to the guy’s brilliance:

My boss had gotten a fairly angry email from Bill sometime in 1995 if memory serves right. Chicago had taken much of his and Microsoft’s attention since the early 90s, that we didn’t see the internet coming.

When it came, nobody was alarmed. Bill had apparently gone on a learning tour of sorts shortly afterwards, but most of the people in the industry knew nothing about what the internet made possible. We knew you could share documents, and it was growing fast, and that Bill thought it was important. Nobody “got” the internet, just like nobody “got” the power of controlling the OS before Microsoft.

At the time, we were working on IIS (internet information service server) and a little behind schedule. Bill had also somehow caught wind of some Palo Alto startup talking to set top box companies to deliver an internet-connected OS (turned out to be WebTV, which we bought later) and was furious. Comes in, yells about how we can’t get the web resource model working, all that. Four letter words. Fairly typical angry boss rant. And then he collected himself and said something we thought was absurd - something akin to this: IIS and Internet Explorer will be Microsoft’s two most important products. We were struggling to get static HTML documents serving properly, and Bill goes on a monologue about how much of commerce will shift to the web, most video will be delivered online, we’d have free live video calling on handheld computers and the web as a platform would end Wintel. Thousands of machines running IIS that we could loan to web companies (sound familiar?).

Bill understood no matter how far we got with Windows, the days of a platform tied to an OS were numbered - in the same time period that Windows 95 was selling like hotcakes. There is no other person I think who could analyze situations objectively like that. It’s like if Steve Jobs launched the iPhone 3G and a month later gives Apple a speech on how the iWatch will kill it.

It was all absurd at the time - stuff of science fiction. Even a few years later during the dot com boom, much of it seemed far fetched.

Then Android and Chrome, iPhone, M1, AWS, and Amazon all happened, and I realized Bill was right. It took a little longer than predicted, but every single laughable thing the guy said that day turned out to be true. I really do think if it wasn’t for the anti trust case, Bill would have seen a lot of this through - for better or worse. It’s easy to look back and say Microsoft lacked the vision to succeed in the internet age - and it’s almost true - but Bill had formulated all this in a few weeks of “exploration”.

In a different universe, I think Microsoft abandons consumer Windows earlier than we can imagine, and builds “AWS” and “Chrome” around the IIS/IE combination. With reason to abandon the Wintel cash cow, IE may not have been so distastefully bad. Guess we’ll never find out though.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#79

'He tells us: "Eventually somebody would come back to you with your idea – they would say, 'Hey, you know, this doesn't need Windows at all'. And you have to control your urge to fucking kill them, because you've been telling them that for two years and now they finally come up with it like it's their idea. But that's the Jedi mind trick." ' OMG. I learned this a few years ago working in a corp environment with stubb…

Benjamin Franklin.

Re: An internal team 'hoodwinked' Bill Gates into launching the Xbox project

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's easy to remember all the things he botched (hello iphone?) but if you look at it objectively I think Ms did survive and prospered under Ballmer. If you look at it objectively you include all the things he botched, which are "easy to remember" according to you. At best, he was meh. In my personal opinion he was horrible - I think a random employee likely would have done better.

I’m going to respectfully disagree. He did contribute to MS before he became CEO. And invested in a lot of things where the fruits are harvested to this day.

When cycles happen on decade long time scales and planning horizons outlast a ceo’s tenure assessing credit and blame becomes exponentially harder. Your right on with Balmer’s contributions.

One wonders how the future of civilization will work if the vast majority cannot even understand the true scope of the wheels they’re standing on, or turning in the background.

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