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UX Issues with Notion

telegra.ph

71–80 of 160 posts

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#71
post #22

(Disclaimer: I work on Notion) To me, the most interesting feedback here is that seamless-editable-by-default is a negative for this user, and as a work-around, this organization locks/unlocks every page. This is surprising to me because I find content locks and editing friction very annoying. For example I used Quip for many years, which locks any block currently being edited by someone else, which can be quite frus…

> Likewise, wouldn’t you be baffled if you needed to click a “Start Editing” button in Word or Google Docs?

Word (and friends) kinda has that. I'm not sure what the heuristic is, but in some circumstances it will put a message in the window title saying you need to save a copy of the current file before you can begin editing. I know it happens for downloaded documents, and that's about it.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a new MBP M1 w16GB RAM it is really snappy. For a mere thousands of dollars you can join the fun. I imagine by M2 though this golden year will be far gone as everyone increases even more how much resources their apps eat.

PMs have gotten addicted to the sugar rush of features and developers to fried salty frameworks, creating a culture of obesity in software engineering. This needs to stop. Every prod test should go through a 10 year old system and perform satisfactorily.

I couldn't agree more.

I have a 4 year old laptop that cost me $3000. Xcode is so laggy sometimes that if I type, it'll miss keystrokes and words come out garbled beyond recognition. A few weeks ago some source code I downloaded from github wouldn't compile because the swift compiler spent too long doing type inference, and decided to error out.

I'm haunted by a vision of computing. In the vision, us software folks just add bloat to everything until it starts feeling gluggly and slow on our modern expensive computers. Then we optimize our programs just enough to keep them running vaguely ok on whatever hardware is on our desks.

The only way to have a snappy computer running modern software is via the tireless work of hardware engineers. Whenever a big hardware performance improvement comes (like the M1), there's a window of a year or so where if you upgrade, everything will run fast again. And of course, all the devs with the new machines stop optimizing their programs and gradually everything slows down again. Eventually our software goes back to being as slow as it was before, except if you didn't upgrade your computer, now it barely functions.

I want off this ride. My 6 year old FreeBSD server is somehow still snappy and responsive. Maybe the answer is to just not run modern desktop software.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#73
post #22

(Disclaimer: I work on Notion) To me, the most interesting feedback here is that seamless-editable-by-default is a negative for this user, and as a work-around, this organization locks/unlocks every page. This is surprising to me because I find content locks and editing friction very annoying. For example I used Quip for many years, which locks any block currently being edited by someone else, which can be quite frus…

>Likewise, wouldn’t you be baffled if you needed to click a “Start Editing” button in Word or Google Docs? Likewise, wouldn't you be baffled if you opened up a wikipedia article and found you were automatically editing it, and now you need to worry about making an accident every time you visit the site because you had no intentions of editing content, instead just consuming it. But that's just because people are usin…

> I feel like "tech" has ultimately failed in this regard.

This is what happens when you start designing products for the lowest common denominator and weigh quantitative feedback above qualitative.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#74
I have been using Notion for 3-4 years now. There is nothing better IMO. It is slow at times, it has a lot of its power hidden behind the "/", and it's not very helpful of you need advanced governance (like locking multiple pages easily). But it is great in any other way, personally I am waiting for the API and table grouping features to make it really great, and I could stop using aitrable.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#75
post #43

I don't mind any of these issues to be honest, but I do mind how hopelessly slow it is. Is it also super sluggish for all you SF Bay area people? I can't tell if it's just network latency on a heavy protocol, or just slow slow.

Yep, I stopped using it because it became painfully slow, and I only had about 50 items on a page. I’m using 2018 15” MacBook Pro core i7. It’s a petty because the reason I started to use it was it’s speed and light weight, now it turned into another monolith, just like the ones it tried to beat in the beginning

but I tried inspect this page https://www.notion.so/Notion-Template-Gallery-181e961aeb5c4e... in firefox console, the memory tab shows 160MB .. super crazy.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO notion is not a short-form note taking app, and I think it's not ever going to the right app for that use case (though I know lots use it that way anyway). I personally use Keep for most "notes" and notion for "documents". Some of the documents are notes but they're long-form research / project documents.

again, you can do both of these in vim/Joplin/Obsidian/Google Docs or probably a hundred other tools.

Sorry, I should have clarified what I meant by "documents". Notion has a really rich concept of a "document" with deep functionality that other tools typically don't have.

For example notion pages can include full markdown in addition to subdocuments, databases, templates, relationships, reminders, galleries, kanban boards, formulas, lists, calendars, timelines, images, videos, web embeds, code snippets, files, maps, tweets, figma views, etc.

Where other apps do have some overlap, they typically don't have similar sharing functionality. Notion pages can be private, shared, team-visible, or public on the internet.

To more directly compare to your examples:

* Vim - No rich document features, no mobile access, no markdown rendering, no sharing. * Joplin - I haven't used this myself but a quick look seems like it has no sharing or team features. * Obsidian - No sharing features. * Google docs - No rich document features.

Keep is just a notes app. No argument that alternatives exist there. I like Keep because it works well on android and the web and keeps it simple, but there's definitely other options.

FWIW I agree there is alternatives to Notion, in the strictest sense of "alternative". Quip is really close for example. For some use cases (like the article here) you could call Confluence an alternative. But they're just not as flexible or full featured as notion for such a massive variety of use cases across a team. We use notion as a client CRM, project management tool, internal documentation tool, public user guide, discussion space, note app, research log, etc. and there's not really one tool that covers all of those use cases competitively.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#77

I have been using Notion for 3-4 years now. There is nothing better IMO. It is slow at times, it has a lot of its power hidden behind the "/", and it's not very helpful of you need advanced governance (like locking multiple pages easily). But it is great in any other way, personally I am waiting for the API and table grouping features to make it really great, and I could stop using aitrable.

(Notion give me table grouping please!!)

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#78
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PMs have gotten addicted to the sugar rush of features and developers to fried salty frameworks, creating a culture of obesity in software engineering. This needs to stop. Every prod test should go through a 10 year old system and perform satisfactorily.

I couldn't agree more. I have a 4 year old laptop that cost me $3000. Xcode is so laggy sometimes that if I type, it'll miss keystrokes and words come out garbled beyond recognition. A few weeks ago some source code I downloaded from github wouldn't compile because the swift compiler spent too long doing type inference, and decided to error out. I'm haunted by a vision of computing. In the vision, us software folks j…

A good chunk of that is unique to the swift part of xcode. Do the same things in an Objective-C codebase and you'll be surprised about how snappy and non-buggy everything is.

I maintain today you could've gotten %80-%90 of the benefits of swift with a syntax refresh and add a few new cheap to compile features to Objective-C itself, like stronger nullbables and the ADT enums.

I think the 'good enough software' stuff will stop happening when physical limits start limiting improvements in compute, because the only way to have a competitive advantage then is through better software.

I hope that day is far away although, because it means that something like 8k consumer VR is something that will never happen, where the software is written properly to take proper advantage of the hardware.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#79
post #15

When I read people like or love Notion, I wish I could watch them use it. Obviously they are doing things very differently than I do... Typing latency while writing or editing a page is really high (bad). Every keypress you do, must be going through a long chain of "what can we interpret the user to be wanting ?" questions. Guess what!? The user is probably just trying to fucking type! Special features and options sh…

> It actually feels like this app was designed for people who only use one finger to type and the other hand driving a mouse all day.

I think there's a great product somewhere in Notion – the blending of wiki/database/etc is great – but THIS is the biggest issue I have with it. Everything I do just takes that bit longer than software that I choose to use, because everything is designed around the mouse.

Keyboard shortcuts aren't enough to create a good UX for the keyboard, the whole UX needs consideration, and Notion has unfortunately failed on that.

For a while their text editor was very poor, to the point where my colleagues and I all edited text in other software and copied it in. This has improved a lot in the last year or so, but there are still plenty of issues at the block level and upwards, it's just the word-level that got better.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#80
A lot of these complaints seem to take me back many years - when I still worked in tech as a profession. Mainly because they are the same frustrations with decades-old attempts at creating a WYSIWYG that is remotely successful. It is interesting to see that this space is still difficult to solve.
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