Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not really. They'll just say a chemistry experiment isnt life.
Once the "chemical experiment" escapes its petri-dish and replicates in the laboratory's drain, taking over whole beach resorts and a third of the Pacific ocean, people will rethink!
Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
71–80 of 143 posts
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#72Can I get a ELI5 version of this theory?
> According to the chemoton model, life should basically, but of necessity, have an autocatalytic subsystem consisting of metabolism and a replication process, and a membrane enclosing these functions.
also
>A single chemical reaction is said to be autocatalytic if one of the reaction products is also a catalyst for the same or a coupled reaction
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#73Considering that the first proto-computers were not programmable, I can't help but be skeptical that the first life needed genetic material. Certainly there were lipid membranes. Maybe there were spontaneous proteins, maybe there was purely-catalytic RNA. I guess it's also a matter of line drawing. I'm OK with calling crystals life, for example. One should feel bad about breaking up big ones the same as one should fe…
I think it's likely that the first life like our kind was only composed of genetic material. RNA and DNA are prone to replicating themselves (with many errors and not efficiently) in a wide variety of situations. It's way more likely that evolution selected those molecules for efficiency than that some complex life appeared without some transferable data storage.
Obviously, any RNA or DNA molecule can serve as a template for the polymerization of another nucleic acid molecule.
However the polymerization cannot proceed spontaneously. The nucleotides polymerize by condensation, i.e. by releasing water.
It should be obvious that such a reaction cannot be spontaneous when the molecules are already surrounded by water. You need some molecule able to extract the water from the nucleotides, for example an acid anhydride, like ATP.
That anhydride must have also been produced by water extraction and in the water environment you need an energy source for that.
So if you will complete the analysis you will reach the conclusion that you need an existing living being for the replication, no replication can occur otherwise.
Obviously, in a lab you can yourself substitute the role of that living being, by providing adequate supplies of monomers and of energy sources, so you can replicate nucleic acids in abiotic conditions. Nevertheless, that could not happen in natural conditions.
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#74> many biological molecules can be constructed from just six simple molecules, including water, methane... There is no news here. This is just the same speculation that has been made thousands of times before for decades. Of course we can make big molecules from small ones in a lab. Of course life has to reproduce, metabolize and have a boundary from the environment. Pointing this out is not "the key to the origins o…
> and have a boundary from the environment This is not self evident. Maybe this is the news? I am not sure, what are you saying?
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#75Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you've got a minority opinion calling crystals "alive," although it does jibe with one definition of life that I heard: "any self-sustaining system that reduces internal entropy."
> "any self-sustaining system that reduces internal entropy." Planet Earth would/should definitely count as alive, especially if it "reproduces" via us terraforming other planets to become like Earth.
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
While that is an interesting fact about the evolution of ribosomes, no kind of ribosome could have ever appeared, except after the process of RNA replication was already a perfected process. Otherwise the first ribosome would have disappeared soon after it was first assembled, without leaving any descendants. The first ribosome was probably made only of RNA, as there were no other ribosomes to assemble the ribosomal…
Many statements made with certainty about an era about which we know absolutely nothing for sure.
For example we know for sure that all the chemical reactions required to assemble the components of a living being required the same amount of energy then as they require now, so either there was a source of energy large enough to enable them, or they were impossible.
Other things may not be completely certain, but they are overwhelmingly plausible, for example if we know that the transition from a more primitive structure to a more complex structure required 5 improbable mutations, we can be pretty sure that there is no chance that all those changes happened simultaneously, but they must have happened in a certain sequence, one by one.
If moreover, there are some causal links between those events, so that some of them cannot happen unless others already happened, then we may be able to determine which was the sequence of those 5 events, with considerable certainty.
While we are unable yet to estimate confidently which of many possible things really happened in the distant past, we can actually exclude with great certainty many other things, about which we can say for sure that they did not happen, because they contradict fundamental laws, like the conservation of energy.
Among these things that certainly did not happen are some previously popular theories about the origin of life, whose authors did not attempt to analyze them in enough detail to see if they are compatible with the known chemistry and physics, e.g. the ancient theory of the "organic soup" or the more recent theory of the "RNA world".
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is just wrong (as you say, careless). The criteria is "metabolism", not growth and reproduction. Similarly, viruses are not alive although they can reproduce. Interestingly, there are some highly parasitic organisms with limited ability to metabolize, that is, they have lost their genes and instead depend on their host organism (but I think all those examples still have some level of metabolic capability).
I don't really know what "metabolism" means, abstractly. I am deader than a virus without chloroplasts existing elsewhere. Viruses need a host for the productive bit, I had food for the non-reproductive bit. Viruses don't break down fast enough compared to their abundance to cause extinction, so why fault them for optimizing? People commonly theorize that virus came from rump parasitic cells. I wouldn't be surprised…
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Genetic material" is memory. Therefore it must have the following properties: 1. It must be able to store any random sequence of symbols belonging to a certain set (e.g. any possible sequence of bases in the case of nucleic acids). 2. There must be a way to make identical copies of it (e.g. nucleic acid replication). (the previous 2 properties are true both for its own genetic material and for a foreign virus that d…
I'm not sure defining requirements by analogy is a valid process.
The 3 requirements that I have listed do not contain any analogy, they just give a precise expression of the conventional meaning of the words "genetic material" as applied to a component of the living beings, now known to consist of nucleic acids for the life on Earth.
While not all biologists would be able to define precisely what they mean by "genetic material", the listed requirements correspond to the actual use of the word, in the most general sense.
Re: Tibor Gánti's ideas about the origins of life
#80Considering that the first proto-computers were not programmable, I can't help but be skeptical that the first life needed genetic material. Certainly there were lipid membranes. Maybe there were spontaneous proteins, maybe there was purely-catalytic RNA. I guess it's also a matter of line drawing. I'm OK with calling crystals life, for example. One should feel bad about breaking up big ones the same as one should fe…
Crystallization is reversible in a thermodynamic sense. You take some granite, melt it, and then cool it (slowly, under pressure), and you have granite again. Is this a phoenix/Jesus-like life and death cycle? Or does life only change forms?
I agree with you generally that 'life' may be gradational. However I think calling crystals 'life' actually removes any meaning whatsoever from the term. If the line isn't somewhere in the neighborhood of viruses and prions then it kinda has to expand to include anything made of matter (and then energy etc.).
While we don't (and don't have to) have a precise definition of 'life', the 'life' gradation needs to branch like a Bezier curve off the x axis at some point for it to be a functional term.