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“I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

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Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#71

Post by 13steinj »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #69
justtocomment wrote: post #66

Without ever having heard of this case, I'd like to add two, maybe unrelated, datapoints: * I know Matthias Kirschner personally (though not very good). This story does not fit the character I met. * There is a campaign of disinformation, character assassination and harrassment going on against the Debian project, the FSFE, and their members (maybe other projects as well). This has been going on for multiple years no…

Yet the courts validated her assertions. I take that as entirely trumping this attempt to deny or excuse the inexcusable.

According to who though? She made bold claims, without providing any actual proof in the form of court documents. Why jump to assume she's in the right?

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#73

Post by em-bee »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #70
em-bee wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while i acknolwdge your point about paying everyone the same, no matter how hard they work, this is not the issue here. senior people get paid more than juniors, and those working hard make it to senior faster. the problem is that women get paid less even if they work as hard or harder than men. the only way to discover this is to compare salaries.

Working hard isn't the only factor influencing how much someone is paid. It also depends on qualification and eventual productivity. As I started this argument, the goal of an employer is to pay as little as possible for given work. Let's turn this argument around: if male and female are equally qualified, what would make anyone pay male _more_? If a female accepts to work for less, than she's going to be hired in th…

that may be true if men and women are actually considered equal, but you are ignoring until recently it was commonly accepted that women are weaker, and generally less capable than men.

therefore the assumption must be that women are paid less because of of this perceived difference, and any claim that women are actually less productive must be proven with extraordinary evidence.

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#74

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

em-bee wrote: post #73
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working hard isn't the only factor influencing how much someone is paid. It also depends on qualification and eventual productivity. As I started this argument, the goal of an employer is to pay as little as possible for given work. Let's turn this argument around: if male and female are equally qualified, what would make anyone pay male _more_? If a female accepts to work for less, than she's going to be hired in th…

that may be true if men and women are actually considered equal, but you are ignoring until recently it was commonly accepted that women are weaker, and generally less capable than men. therefore the assumption must be that women are paid less because of of this perceived difference, and any claim that women are actually less productive must be proven with extraordinary evidence.

> but you are ignoring until recently it was commonly accepted that women are weaker,

Last time I checked, women's weightlifting or running records were nowhere near those of men. So it is an objective law of nature that women are indeed physically weaker. (To compensate for that, they have unique abilities that men totally lack.)

> therefore the assumption must be that women are paid less because of of this perceived difference

The assumption must be that everyone is paid as low as he/she agrees to work for. It that amount is lower for women, it is only because they agree to work for less. Any rational employer should hire the candidate who asks for less money, and any boss who does not do that will likely go out of business soon, since he can't make rational decisions.

By the way, it is also possible, that a person overestimates his/hers real value to the employer, believing to be doing the same work as another colleague, but getting less pay, starting this fight for 'justice'. In the reality it is most likely that a colleague is only perceived equal, but is somewhat superior in reality.

TL;DR: your salary is an objective value of your labour. if you think you it is worth more, negotiate a raise or go get a better paying job. If you don't get it, you are not worth that pay.

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#76

Post by Brian_K_White »

13steinj wrote: post #71
Brian_K_White wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the courts validated her assertions. I take that as entirely trumping this attempt to deny or excuse the inexcusable.

According to who though? She made bold claims, without providing any actual proof in the form of court documents. Why jump to assume she's in the right?

Did she hide her identity?

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#77

Post by hugoroy »

For the record, the FSFE published a response here: https://fsfe.org/about/statement-20201220.html

> [...] we felt it necessary to state unequivocally that this post does not reflect the reality of the facts and contradicts the verdict by the Berlin Labour Court.

> The court judgement of 19 November 2020 (reference number 42 Ca 5723/20) did not acknowledge any factual basis to the assertions. Furthermore the judges concluded that our former employee's own statements prove that she “neither experienced hostility, nor was she offended, nor in another form intimidated or demeaned”. Additionally they found, she received equal treatment, and that “the boundaries of socially acceptable conduct” were “not exceeded”.

> Until the end of the proceedings, we do not wish to comment any further [...]

Re: “I took FSFE to court. This is my story”

#79

Post by em-bee »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #74
em-bee wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that may be true if men and women are actually considered equal, but you are ignoring until recently it was commonly accepted that women are weaker, and generally less capable than men. therefore the assumption must be that women are paid less because of of this perceived difference, and any claim that women are actually less productive must be proven with extraordinary evidence.

> but you are ignoring until recently it was commonly accepted that women are weaker, Last time I checked, women's weightlifting or running records were nowhere near those of men. So it is an objective law of nature that women are indeed physically weaker. (To compensate for that, they have unique abilities that men totally lack.) > therefore the assumption must be that women are paid less because of of this perceive…

we are not talking about physical labor here, but work that requires the use of your brain.

observable physical weakness has no bearing on any other capacities, but what i said above is specifically about those other capacities.

i expect to see evidence that women are less capable programmers, project managers, etc.

the only thing that a salary measures objectively, is your negotiation skills.

i absolutely disagree that everyone should only be paid what they are able to negotiate for.

if there is an objective measure of performance (which, i admit is very hard, if it is possible at all) then equal performance should get equal pay. maybe add in equal responsibility, since that is also a factor.

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