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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#71

Post by Jabbles »

miked85 wrote: post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

Do we have the email with the "ultimatum" in it? I think there's a world of difference between

"Do these things or I'm gone and taking my team with me"

and

"These things are so fundamental to my role as an ethical AI researcher that it's difficult to see myself doing this job without them"

IANAL, but I suspect a court would also interpret them differently.

And even so, Google likes to position itself as a nice employer, which listens to their employees' concerns. De-escalating the situation would have been nice - immediately terminating the concerned employee makes Google seem like another giant faceless emotionless multinational corporation (which it may well be).

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#72

Post by miked85 »

claudeganon wrote: post #29
miked85 wrote: post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?

Giving ultimatums and threatening to quit generally isn't a good way to remain employed with any company.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#73

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

claudeganon wrote: post #51
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

Or they could just actually unionize instead of this reactive outrage. It’s unlikely Gebru would have been fired under these circumstances if she had a union contract.

As a manager, Gebru wouldn't have been allowed into a union.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#75

Post by op03 »

zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

Big Corps have always been taken that stance. Google managers must be saying the same thing up and down the food chain.

But the fact that it hasn't stopped walkouts is interesting. It means there are influential people within who back the walkouts.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#76

Post by Technically »

tinalumfoil wrote: post #60
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

> they are looking to assuage their conscious through statements like these Statements like these still put pressure on Google. It's possible to care enough to say something, without caring enough to go beyond talk, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's all performative.

How does it put pressure on Google? Where's the leverage?

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#77

Post by lr4444lr »

geofft wrote: post #58
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

If their goal is to promote savory behavior, isn't it beneficial to have an internal voice trying to guide the company's direction? There is no shortage of engineers who would happily take a job at Google. If the folks raising concerns decided to all leave, isn't the net result that Google would operate much as it does today (maybe a little bit slower to get products to market) but without any internal check on its b…

If they were serious about the strength of collective action, they could unionize. That due process would have protected a fired employee more than any petition.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#78

Post by whynotminot »

claudeganon wrote: post #29
miked85 wrote: post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?

> So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good.

Gonna take a quick guess you're still in undergrad.

Yes, this is literally how employment works. Your future boss's job will be to use your labor efficiently for the company. You may disagree with your boss on an assignment, in which case it would be wise to schedule some time and professionally discuss your concerns. Your boss may be persuaded, and good bosses will try their best, within reason, to keep their subordinates content with the work they're doing.

However, at the end of the day, the boss may disagree with your points and still require you to do the job as assigned. If you refuse, you will likely be fired. Note that you also have agency here: If you don't like the work the boss makes you do, and you feel like your concerns are consistently falling on deaf ears, you can quit.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#79

Post by pydry »

zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

If your job is an ethicist, your company hires you to demonstrate that they are ethical.

If they truly aren't then you either have to sacrifice your integrity or kick up a fuss. Additionally once her integrity is lost she loses market value.

Her market (whitewashing/signaling of ethical behavior of a large company) is an odd one but she behaved it the most rational manner given the circumstances.

Moreover by kicking up a fuss she probably has sacrificed an non disparagement termination bonus. Real $$$. So she's probably not talking shit.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#80

Post by claudeganon »

rafiki6 wrote: post #67
claudeganon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you don’t do what your boss says at a job, even if you disagree, your boss can fire you, and this is good. But if you tell your boss that they should do something or you’ll quit, this is bad and makes you unemployable. You realize that this is just an argument that whoever is in a position of authority over you is right by virtue of having that authority?

As much as I support employment rights, you are paid by a company to do their bidding. If you don't like it start a company, but then you're just doing the bidding of the customer.

This is a uniquely American notion of employment. “Do my bidding or be done away with” is not the norm across countries with strong unions and worker protections.
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