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Winning back the Internet by building our own

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Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#71

Post by cocktailpeanuts »

humanrebar wrote: post #53
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #47

Discussing torrents: > people were more easily able to access the things they needed without being forced to ask or pay for permission to have them. Haha. We’re not talking about folks stealing bread to feed their family. We’re talking about people stealing entertainment. There’s a lot wrong with big media corporations: DMCA takedown notice misuse, copyright for life of the artist + 75 years, exploitative contracts,…

It's rude and dishonorable to take something someone doesn't want to give you. Even so, it's not the same category of misdeed as stealing bread. If you eat a loaf of bread, someone else cannot. But if you perform or listen to a song, it's still there for others. Sometimes, especially in the case of technically copyrighted but practically abandoned works, sharing the work is actually more likely to keep it available f…

> If you eat a loaf of bread, someone else cannot. But if you perform or listen to a song, it's still there for others.

OK, that's good for you and the "others", but what about the person who spent time and energy to write the song and perform? Just because it's "still there for others", it's ok to steal it? You are only thinking from the consumer's point of view and neglecting why people produce things of value in the first place. If they don't get rewarded, they will simply stop producing value.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#72

Post by xpe »

jrnichols wrote: post #56

The internet as we know it would be just fine if we de-commercialized it. Most websites as we know it don't need to be riddled with ads, google fonts, social media trackers, analytics. "But how do we make money from it?" - if that's the first thought, then maybe it doesn't need to be there. I'd rather have the internet for sharing reliable information, not advertising. It was doing just fine before corporate marketin…

What are some alternatives you would suggest?

Please incorporate these aspects:

1. Running a network and computers costs money.

2. Commercial forces seek out channels where attention exists.

3. There is an incentive for content providers to place ads.

4. (add your own factors)

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#73

Post by cortesoft »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #69
cortesoft wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my point is I think the article is actually arguing for more than just hobbyist networks. I think they ARE trying to reach non-technical users with this plan.

I did not get that impression as the author assumes some readers will be familiar with the "technical" history he describes. Granted, the blog as a whole does not have a necessarily technical focus. Even so, what is the harm if non-technical readers encounter this article. Regarding creation of new networks, it seems your issue with this article applies more to this internet we are using right now. The one that you i…

I don't think this article causes any harm... I am not sure where you are getting that from.

Yes, this article is not addressed to non-technical readers, but my interpretation is that they are wanting technical people to create this "new internet" for the masses.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#74

Post by xpe »

giantrobot wrote: post #35
baxtr wrote: post #13

Can somebody explain to me, what "winning back the Internet" actually means?

It means it would have stuff they like but not things they don't like. Also normal people are unwelcome, only technically adept users but only those making things they want.

This comment strikes me as uncharitable.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html :

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#75

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

cortesoft wrote: post #73
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not get that impression as the author assumes some readers will be familiar with the "technical" history he describes. Granted, the blog as a whole does not have a necessarily technical focus. Even so, what is the harm if non-technical readers encounter this article. Regarding creation of new networks, it seems your issue with this article applies more to this internet we are using right now. The one that you i…

I don't think this article causes any harm... I am not sure where you are getting that from. Yes, this article is not addressed to non-technical readers, but my interpretation is that they are wanting technical people to create this "new internet" for the masses.

It is the "for the masses" part of your reasoning I do not understand how you read that into the article.

I think the issue you have is more with the internet ("Internet", capital "I") we are using right now, which is dominated by a www "for the masses" and "content" like this blog. The Internet allows and encourages the type of senseless "content" you are criticising. New networks do not have to be "for the masses", or dominated by a www, their creation and administration does not have to itself be a commercial enterprise, nor do these networks have to be open for commercial use.

IMO, it is the "for the masses" and "open for commercial use" characteristics of this Internet that lead to blog articles like this one. The blog entry is arguably just a means of steering readers to a website, mentioned at the end of the article, that purports to offer training courses to aspiring "revolutionaries".

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#76

Post by cageface »

We techies like to believe that most problems created by technology can be solved by more technology.

But in fact I think that very few of the problems we're facing with the internet right now are really technical in nature. They are social and political problems that require social and political solutions.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#77

Post by robocat »

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #71
humanrebar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's rude and dishonorable to take something someone doesn't want to give you. Even so, it's not the same category of misdeed as stealing bread. If you eat a loaf of bread, someone else cannot. But if you perform or listen to a song, it's still there for others. Sometimes, especially in the case of technically copyrighted but practically abandoned works, sharing the work is actually more likely to keep it available f…

> If you eat a loaf of bread, someone else cannot. But if you perform or listen to a song, it's still there for others. OK, that's good for you and the "others", but what about the person who spent time and energy to write the song and perform? Just because it's "still there for others", it's ok to steal it? You are only thinking from the consumer's point of view and neglecting why people produce things of value in t…

> If they don't get rewarded, they will simply stop producing value.

Not in the case of music. The vast majority is given away for free (some in the hope of future financial success, but plenty just for the hell of it).

If the vast majority were not addicted to popular tracks, the marginal price of music would drop to zero pretty quickly.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#78

Post by dnautics »

Perhaps this is self-serving of me, since I want to build a product like this, but:

I think honestly the problem is that these systems are not consumer-oriented products. I think there is a real desire by people to not have to live as rentiers in the digital marketplace, but there are not really products that cater to that.

IMO There's a place for something that merges a NAS, with some sort of overlay over current IP that is encrypted and fully peer-to-peer. But NASes are still too hard for many consumers to set up, and most techniques to overlay over IP are likewise too difficult, and basically impossible to correctly multi-tenant (you can't share your network space with your aunt and your coworker without sharing with both). Unlike IPFS, or bittorrent, availability is important, but not critical, and you don't need to promiscuously replicate your information across the entire world, encrypted or otherwise.

I think there's a market for something that is like "plug in to your local network, do minimal configuration, you can set up shared folders a la dropbox, and you can access it over the net". You can sync credentials with a username and a one-time PIN. You should be able to easily set up rules for sharing with friends, with smart defaults.

I think what's interesting from a consumer perspective is that there are things you can do on such a platform that many (not all) people would think twice about letting facebook do, like tag and organize photos of your young kid and share them with relatives/friends who have a PIN.

I also think that the time horizon for this is relatively short (5-years?) soon people will be so desensitized to advertisements/being a digital rentier that the opportunity will have aged out. 20-somethings don't know what a NAS is.

I haven't started on this yet, but if anyone is interested, my info's here.

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#79

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #70
dnautics wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> watching movies and show you didn’t pay for is theft When I have a bike and you steal it from me, you are depriving me of the use of that bicycle. That's what makes it theft. There is no deprival, therefore no theft in "watching something you didn't pay for". If you argue "you are depriving the right of the artist to make money" that makes the assumption that the right of an artist to coerce money out of the counte…

> When I have a bike and you steal it from me, you are depriving me of the use of that bicycle. That's what makes it theft. Let me give you back your analogy with a dose of reality: When I make a living by selling bikes, and you steal it from me, you are depriving me of my time and energy and money spent to maintain my business. That's what makes it theft.

> When I make a living by selling bikes, and you steal it from me, you are depriving me of my time and energy and money spent to maintain my business. That's what makes it theft.

So your position is that if a company sells something, anything that deprives them of potential income is theft? If I set up a separate bike store down the street and charge less than you, have I stolen from you? How about if I give them away for free?

Re: Winning back the Internet by building our own

#80

Post by k33n »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #45
k33n wrote: post #38

> Would-be dictators like Trump and others across the globe use the Internet to bend both people and institutions to their will using misinformation and fear. Once Trump is gone, who will the simpletons hate? Elon Musk, probably.

Why do you assume hating on Trump is the exclusive domain of simpletons?

Because Trump hate was literally spoon-fed to you. There's not a single rabid Trump hater who hated him before 2016. Ad spend is a heck of a thing. The simpletons can be made to hate or love anyone. It's just PR, and you fell for it.
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