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Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

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Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#71

Post by ArchOversight »

gardaani wrote: post #64

Macs can also play HDR content on external displays, such as HDR televisions and projectors. This document lists Mac models supporting HDR: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210980 I seems that the new MacBook Air with M1 can't play HDR content on external displays. :(

What makes you say that the MacBook Air with M1 can't play HDR content on external displays?

The MacBook Air with M1 has two USB 4 ports. USB 4 is Thunderbolt 3 + some extra bits.

See https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201736 for information.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#72

Post by antiterra »

tesseract wrote: post #62
Androider wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's flawlessly undetectable in terms of brightness -- the interface white and grays don't change at all. In order to pull this off, you need to know exactly how many nits bright the display is, as well as having complete software control of the actual hardware brightness. On Windows, you have neither. Enabling HDR mode completely throws off your current colors and desktop brightness and you have to reset both your…

Mac OS has also had system-wide color management and calibration (ColorSync) since the early 90s, part of its legacy of being the preferred platform for desktop publishing. On Windows the systemwide "color management" basically consists of assigning a default color profile that applications can choose to use - which is generally only done by professional design/photo/video software, and not by the desktop or most "no…

The desktop and most windowed apps definitely do use the systemwide color management. The main issue in the past has been whether apps correctly remap image colors based on the image’s tagged (or lack of) profile. It was broken on Macs too but these days isn’t that much of an issue.

(see the edited preface to https://cameratico.com/guides/web-browser-color-management-g... )

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#73

Post by AnssiH »

gardaani wrote: post #63
AnssiH wrote: post #13

When still talking about mixed SDR+HDR content on a HDR display having differently mapped whites, the article says: > it’s strange and new, and possibly unique to Apple. But that is exactly how Windows 10 does it with HDR displays, too. So not really unique to Apple. To the article's benefit, it did say "possibly" :) I'm using Win 10 myself with an HDR display, and HDR white appears brighter than "desktop" white just…

The huge Windows flaw is that it isn't color managed by default. It means that colors in most applications look extra saturated on wide gamut displays. I wonder if it the same flaw applies to HDR.. apps would look extra bright. Macs and its apps have been properly color managed for decades. That's why the transition from SDR to HDR monitors has been painless. Apps have been ready for it for a long time.

> I wonder if it the same flaw applies to HDR.. apps would look extra bright.

No, apps on Windows HDR look normal unless they are HDR-aware and use the "extra brightness".

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#74

Post by formerly_proven »

tesseract wrote: post #62
Androider wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's flawlessly undetectable in terms of brightness -- the interface white and grays don't change at all. In order to pull this off, you need to know exactly how many nits bright the display is, as well as having complete software control of the actual hardware brightness. On Windows, you have neither. Enabling HDR mode completely throws off your current colors and desktop brightness and you have to reset both your…

Mac OS has also had system-wide color management and calibration (ColorSync) since the early 90s, part of its legacy of being the preferred platform for desktop publishing. On Windows the systemwide "color management" basically consists of assigning a default color profile that applications can choose to use - which is generally only done by professional design/photo/video software, and not by the desktop or most "no…

Windows color management is pretty much just a folder where ICC files go to die. Everything needs to be done by the application. Nothing is color managed by default. This alone makes HDR displays (which aren't sRGB in HDR mode) less than worthless on Windows. The situation is identical on Linux, which copied the Windows approach.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#75

Post by fortran77 »

xvector wrote: post #25
fortran77 wrote: post #7

> The company, long known for shipping high quality, color-accurate displays, This is simply not true; a lie. Everyone in Hollywood and the professional print world who needed color-accurate displays that could be calibrated were using HP Dreamcolor Displays or similar products from companies like BenQ ( For example: https://nofilmschool.com/2017/12/benq-sw271-color-management... ) No movie studio does professional c…

The scope here is consumer products.

Maybe, but I just don't like seeing the lie that "Hollywood uses Macs." Of course, the PAs and screenwriters do, but movie editors, color graders, and digital SFX folks don't. And, of course, render farms don't.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#76

Post by AnssiH »

Androider wrote: post #47
AnssiH wrote: post #13

When still talking about mixed SDR+HDR content on a HDR display having differently mapped whites, the article says: > it’s strange and new, and possibly unique to Apple. But that is exactly how Windows 10 does it with HDR displays, too. So not really unique to Apple. To the article's benefit, it did say "possibly" :) I'm using Win 10 myself with an HDR display, and HDR white appears brighter than "desktop" white just…

The Windows HDR implementation is complete crap, exactly because they don't have have full control of the hardware stack as Apple does and can't change all the monitor settings like they would need to. When you toggle HDR on Windows, the desktop becomes dull gray and desaturated exactly because they pull down the previous desktop brightness to something less than 255. So you have to then adjust your monitor's brightn…

I haven't encountered such issues with LG C9. I don't need to touch the settings on my TV when enabling/disabling Windows HDR (which puts my TV in HDR mode), the previous SDR-mode desktop brightness is achieved in HDR mode just fine.

Though I remember having read that the Windows HDR stuff works slightly differently for internal monitors (e.g. in laptops), is your experience with those?

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#77

Post by rado »

ineedasername wrote: post #12

I think I must be some weird outlier on HDR. I recently upgraded to a display that supports it, and when I turn it on, everything just looks darker to me. As though the brightness went to half at the same time that contrast was cranked up high. Playing with color and exposure and other settings just made things worse.

Same here, very frustrating. When HDR is on, everything is washed out, no matter the color profile. I was hoping to use full HDR brightness for the macOS UI, but no luck so far.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#78

Post by sirn »

blauditore wrote: post #37
bredren wrote: post #29

I’ve had the XDR Pro Display since June, and use it primarily for dev. I just trusted Apple in their focus on this direction. Suffice it to say I am very happy with it. What I like about conclusions of this piece is it points to how strategic Apple is thinking in its leverage due to the breadth of distribution of advanced hardware and software. Apple is able to set entire new standards of expectation for customers th…

> Apple is able to set entire new standards of expectation for customers that are _very_ hard for competitors to follow. The cheaper version of this display has a price tag of $5k, the more expensive one $6k. I never spent even remotely as much money on a display, so I cannot speak from first-hand experience. But a quick search for graphics-design displays yields several competitor products that have similar or bette…

The main issue with comparing the spec is the difference are not really shown in these specs, e.g. luminance and chromaticity uniformity (aka Delta E), among other things. Consumer grade monitor usually do not have these, and when combining with wide color gamut and _measured_ color space (not claimed), we're talking about at least higher grade EIZO monitors which are not less than $1k.

The monitor that are comparable to the Pro XDR Display are ASUS PA32UCX ($4500) or EIZO CG319X ($6000) which usually requires full recalibration every certain amount of usage.

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#79

Post by SaladFork »

amluto wrote: post #31
vmokry wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, here are some from my HDR Dell monitor: https://ibb.co/M25sXX1 https://ibb.co/RcM62TD

I meant something I can open on an Apple device to see HDR in action.

The video from the screenshots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO01J-M3g0U

Re: Apple’s “Extended Dynamic Range” Brings HDR to Non-HDR Displays

#80

Post by qubitcoder »

Dahoon wrote: post #65
jjtheblunt wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple does many things, but certainly not bleeding-edge innovation. What? Having been in the inner sanctum of engineering within Apple for years, that's exactly the engineering priority for groups I saw and worked within. I'm genuinely curious why you assert otherwise, find it surprising.

Apple is know for taking something others invented and making it better/more user-friendly. That's great but it isn't being bleeding edge. Like the first few iPhones. Smartphones made better, but without simple functions like copy and paste for generations. I find it surprising anyone thinks apple's strength is being bleeding edge innovative. It can be counted on one hand how many times they have been so.

Just in recent weeks:

- M1 [0]

- A14 in the iPhone 12 Pro (first 5-nanometer chip with 11.8 billion transistors) [1]

Previously, they introduced the first 64-bit CPU in a mobile device, which stunned competitors at the time [2].

Not to mention their excellence in hi-dpi displays. In 2012, Apple launched the MacBook Pro a with "retina" display. It took _years_ for non-Apple alternatives to materialize. In fact, the only comparable laptop display in existence today would probably be the Dell XPS 17" UHD+ (which I own, and it's excellent). However, the MacBook Pro 16" remains superior when it comes to sound quality, form factor (i.e. weight), touch pad precision and latency, thermal performance, etc., despite significant investments from Dell in those areas to catch up. [3]

[0]: https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/

[1]: https://www.apple.com/iphone-12-pro/

[2]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/01/21/iphone-5s...

[3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vjKOSwf3M

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