NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch • Hacker News Board

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#71

Post by Jtsummers » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:32 AM UTC

avmich wrote: post #60

carls wrote: post #2

I've done the Coursera course, Nand2Tetris, that inspired this website [1] and found it deeply intellectually satisfying and engaging. If anyone is interested in learning about the logical primitives that build up to a computer, and how they're implemented using logic gates, I would deeply recommend the course! ----------- [1] https://www.nand2tetris.org/

Course materials (projects) seem to contain only slides, with bullet points, not real explanations. Am I missing something? Should I buy the book to actually have the course?

https://www.nand2tetris.org/course

There are PDFs of each chapter for each project. The icons are (left to right): project, slides, chapter.

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#72

Post by dkersten » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:39 AM UTC

rustyminnow wrote: post #52

Sniffnoy wrote: post #16

Building circuits is neat, but I think this has some problems as a game: 1. It seems to only let you save one solution for each level, even though there are two optimization goals. It should let you save one for fewest components and one for fewest NAND gates. 2. It's not really clear how NAND gate counts work in later levels where you're using potentially non-optimal components you've built? Like does it count each…

> it seems like XOR counts as 6 even though there's apparently a way to do it with fewer? This is a great game and tbh I think you're just butthurt because you couldn't figure out any of the optimal solutions. Xor is the first one and it sounds like you didn't solve it. (fwiw I haven't figured it out yet either) 1. It does only save one solution for each level but if you can do it in fewer nands, why do you need to k…

I've completed all but the very last level (input/output, it just seemed too disconnected from the rest and more tedious than informative, so I gave up) and managed optimal solutions for all of the basic logic gates (but not for some of the more complex later components -- would have loved to try, but the canvas gets unwieldy fast as it has too little vertical space, plus its too much effort to break down components into their nand gates for optimisation).

With that said (so you know that I'm not "butthurt" nor do I need to give it another try): I completely agree with all of the feedback Sniffnoy gave and I don't know why you're getting butthurt over someone having feedback like that. Why would you insult someone just because they had comments on it? Are you having a bad day?

It is a great game, nonetheless, though, otherwise I wouldn't have played it as far as I did. I think with some small tweaks and fixes, it could be greater still, however.

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#73

Post by dkersten » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:43 AM UTC

berkserbet wrote: post #5

Really cool, curious to see how hard it gets. Reminds me of college.

I find that it actually gets easier as you get further along, because you start using higher and higher level components. The hardest (to optimise, not to implement) for me were the components just after the basic gates (counters, latches, etc).

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#74

Post by userbinator » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:45 AM UTC

I know digital logic, yet was perplexed by the odd definition of D flip-flop this game uses with both "store" and "clock" inputs, which matches none of the standard variants of DFFs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_(electronics)#D_flip...

Edit: this continues on with the counter level, where you can use the register but it does not behave like the typical set of edge-triggered flip-flops (or transparent latches) that one would normally use. My best attempt at coming up with an explanation is that it's like two-phase edge-triggered logic.

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#75

Post by exdsq » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:46 AM UTC

rrwright wrote: post #33

phaemon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. And a quick note that this course is based on the book "The Elements of Computing Systems: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles (The MIT Press)"

A recommendation for the book. It was excellent.

Purchased - thanks :)

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#76

Post by signaru » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 4:54 AM UTC

it would be cool (ambitious) if at some point there is also a programming language/compiler down the line. perhaps it can would also be able to run tetris or even another nandgame.

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#77

Post by signaru » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:00 AM UTC

LeonB wrote: post #34

Should start from physics building up and up until you have subatomic particles, rising through many layers of abstraction until you are doping P and N type semiconductors .... starting with such a high level concept as “nand gates” is far too easy. /sarcasm.parody

this would be good material for a book, where in the end, the reader gets to output "hello world".

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#78

Post by avmich » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:05 AM UTC

Jtsummers wrote: post #71

avmich wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Course materials (projects) seem to contain only slides, with bullet points, not real explanations. Am I missing something? Should I buy the book to actually have the course?

https://www.nand2tetris.org/course There are PDFs of each chapter for each project. The icons are (left to right): project, slides, chapter.

Got it, thanks! The whole rectangular felt like a single object, and I always clicked in the center, so missed the other parts.

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#79

Post by jcranmer » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:07 AM UTC

gzalo wrote: post #51

SulfurHexaFluri wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I tried a Zachtronics game I thought it was awesome and that it was far too much like my actual job so I refunded it. Would have played so much of it if I was still in school.

The main issues I've found in his games (at least for Shenzen I/O and TIS-100) is that the difficulty ramps up a lot in the later levels, and there are artificial limitations that are make the game way harder and less fun. For example, the lack of a "swap dat acc" instruction, having just 2 registers at most, among others. You can work around that but the game's idea shouldn't require you to exploit weaknesses of its…

Of the various Zachtronics games I've tried, Opus Magnum has been the only one where I haven't felt that the interface and the limitations get in the way of letting me execute the solution.

Re: NandGame – Build a Computer from Scratch

#80

Post by rustyminnow » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:13 AM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #72

rustyminnow wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems like XOR counts as 6 even though there's apparently a way to do it with fewer? This is a great game and tbh I think you're just butthurt because you couldn't figure out any of the optimal solutions. Xor is the first one and it sounds like you didn't solve it. (fwiw I haven't figured it out yet either) 1. It does only save one solution for each level but if you can do it in fewer nands, why do you need to k…

I've completed all but the very last level (input/output, it just seemed too disconnected from the rest and more tedious than informative, so I gave up) and managed optimal solutions for all of the basic logic gates (but not for some of the more complex later components -- would have loved to try, but the canvas gets unwieldy fast as it has too little vertical space, plus its too much effort to break down components…

You're right. That was uncalled for.

I think Sniffoy made some valid points but I don't think they support his premise that "Building circuits is neat, but [...] this has some problems as a game". Sure there are things that could be improved but I don't think they take away from the game. I mean you said you did all of the levels with optimizations and enjoyed it. You didn't let the subpar language stop you from enjoying it. But Sniffoy did. And I guess that rubbed me wrong - he's blaming the game because he got hung up on a couple words.