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Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

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Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#71

Post by 27thPW »

oblio wrote: post #45
chippiewill wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a legitimate concern, but it seems less likely to me, specifically in the case of Apple hardware, for two reasons: 1. There will be far more interest in being able to run Linux on that hardware, and in being able to keep it up to date (since it'll be a daily driver). 2. Apple are probably less likely to regularly make drastic changes between hardware revisions because they will need to support multipl…

I'm skeptical. Linux is reasonably popular for "Windows" hardware, most statistics put it at about 0.5% market share. I've never seen anyone running Linux on Intel Macs. Why would ARM Macs, which seem quite a bit more locked down, ever become a better supported and more popular Linux hardware platform? I wish they would become one, but I don't see how we can make this leap.

Anecdotally, I just bought my first Mac just because of the M1. It's an absolute game-changer and at least 5 years ahead of the competition. If macOS becomes too burdensome or heavy-handed, I anticipate I'll move to some Linux distribution assuming there's support (and would help fund its development). I'm guessing there are at least a few people like me who will constitute a market for developers to cater to.

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#72

Post by coldtea »

pengaru wrote: post #51

Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller. At least AMD is supporting upstream Linux development for GPU support, if you care about Free software and control over your computers, throw your money at companies better aligned with those goals. Don't reward Apple for being assholes. <=5nm AMD Zen SoCs will be fantastic as we…

>Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller.

It's many things working together, 5nm is not "most of it".

Not to mention TSMC is already working on 3nm.

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#73

Post by ndesaulniers »

heavyset_go wrote: post #12

If I thought there was a good chance of having the work upstreamed so that a mainline Linux kernel would eventually work on these computers, maybe. In my experience, there are not many ARM SoCs that have mainline support, even some of the Raspberry Pi boards don't, and they're some of the most popular ARM SoCs used for Linux. A lot of these projects get to the stage where a forked kernel will run on the SoC, but then…

I'd be curious if you had a rough outline of what are the steps involved in porting Linux to a new target? In particular, I see folks working on a downstream port the the 3DS: https://github.com/xerpi/linux_3ds. I'm kind of curious where do people even start?

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#74

Post by dilyevsky »

jhfdbkofdcho wrote: post #59
dilyevsky wrote: post #56

Twitter seems like a poor choice for this (anything really?). Is there a gofundme or something?

He should do a Patreon. Other people have done this sort of thing with this model over there. Seems sustainable.

Yeah forgot about this, not sure how well it would work for a project without a regular set of deliverables but probably better than gfm

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#75

Post by melq »

eikenberry wrote: post #38
evolve2k wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. Respectfully it seems you didn’t read much of the thread. From the thread Apple have actively left the door open so other (currently non existent) OS could be booted, but as the author said, they’ve left it open but have not provided documentation. From the thread: “Linus himself has said he'd love to see Linux running on M1 macs, but doesn't think it'll happen. Not because they're locked down, but because App…

> but because Apple won't help us with documentation. No documentation is being hostile to other OSes running on their hardware.

I agree. Not locking the bootloader doesn't mean they're going to embrace running other operating systems.

As a long time mac user, the idea of them supporting other operating systems seems really un-Appley to me. What happens if I put linux on my (still under warranty) macbook and then have to take it in to an Apple store for some reason?

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#77

Post by zucker42 »

pengaru wrote: post #51

Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller. At least AMD is supporting upstream Linux development for GPU support, if you care about Free software and control over your computers, throw your money at companies better aligned with those goals. Don't reward Apple for being assholes. <=5nm AMD Zen SoCs will be fantastic as we…

The other thing that makes M1 interesting is it's ARM with specific hardware support for fast x86 emulation, which IMO is unlikely to be replicated in a top of the line laptop for the next 5 years.

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#78

Post by pengaru »

lumost wrote: post #65
pengaru wrote: post #51

Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller. At least AMD is supporting upstream Linux development for GPU support, if you care about Free software and control over your computers, throw your money at companies better aligned with those goals. Don't reward Apple for being assholes. <=5nm AMD Zen SoCs will be fantastic as we…

I could be mistaken, but I’m unaware of any kernel capabilities/optimizations for heterogeneous cores with differing power requirements. System memory for both gpu and cpu workloads would also be a new requirement requiring some thought. I’d expect it to be difficult for amd/intel to match performance without similar software capabilities.

Without any independent actual measurements of the same stack running on the same hardware with those optimizations turned off, we can't draw any conclusions regarding their significance.

Considering Apple has been so adamant about misrepresenting what's really TSMC silicon as "Apple Silicon", I'm viewing everything they say through "PR oozing with insecurity about not actually controlling access to their chip's manufacturing process, and desperate to convince consumers (and investors) of this being a uniquely Apple advantage" glasses.

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#79

Post by delroth »

lumost wrote: post #65
pengaru wrote: post #51

Most of what makes the M1 interesting is TSMC's 5nm process, why wouldn't we expect similar results from future x86 CPUs on 5nm or smaller. At least AMD is supporting upstream Linux development for GPU support, if you care about Free software and control over your computers, throw your money at companies better aligned with those goals. Don't reward Apple for being assholes. <=5nm AMD Zen SoCs will be fantastic as we…

I could be mistaken, but I’m unaware of any kernel capabilities/optimizations for heterogeneous cores with differing power requirements. System memory for both gpu and cpu workloads would also be a new requirement requiring some thought. I’d expect it to be difficult for amd/intel to match performance without similar software capabilities.

Aren't you basically describing big.LITTLE, which has been standard in most mobile SoCs for years now? (And was probably introduced in Android before iOS.)

Re: Would you be willing to fund a Linux port to Apple Silicon?

#80

Post by zethraeus »

Ecco wrote: post #66

I understand why the developer would like to get a recurring form of revenue, but as a consumer buying a subscription makes no sense at all! The goods obtained (Linux on MabBookAirX,Y) are very much non-recurring by nature...

This is the newly-normal software subscription package or a stipend to bootstrap a project. Both feel pretty normal!

Even if it is the former, updates & improvements take work. And they seem likely to be necessary here.

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