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You Are the Product (2017)

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Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#71

Post by CivBase »

nathias wrote: post #55
alexh1 wrote: post #27

Social media is a tricky one because it's got such a bus factor wrt. usage, however I'm pleasantly surprised at the abundance of products coming out where you (your data, that is) are _not_ the product. Analytics - Fathom ( https://usefathom.com ), Plausible ( https://plausible.io ) Project Management - Portabella ( https://portabella.io ) (disclaimer: I'm behind this one) Chat - Signal ( https://signal.org/en/ ), Ma…

I'm sure you can pay and still be the product.

Cable TV has gotten away with it for decades with outstanding success.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#72

Post by higerordermap »

baxtr wrote: post #28

There is a big sentiment in the comments that ads are per se a bad thing. I want to make a counter argument: ads drive innovation because they make expensive services possible for the masses. I have watched endless YouTube videos and learned a great many things. I haven’t paid a dime for it yet. Newspaper adoption in mass was achieved by the same mechanism. Ads drove the price for newspaper significantly down so the…

I mean, I don't mind contextual ads.

I am somewhat sensitive to data mining but I guess not as much as other people on HN, given I am almost anonymized on the internet.

The worst thing about ads is security, and that's why I block ads even if I am browsing with significantly anonymous profile. Performance is a nice bonus.

I don't think data-mining based ads work well in practice. User_analyze.py can't tell whether I have already purchased the product I searched an hour ago, or lost interest in it. I have yet to see a good recommendation system based on data collection. Blame the big data / machine learning hype.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#73

Post by higerordermap »

didericis wrote: post #38
freediver wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ads are not evil per se, overdoing them is. Do you think youtube algorithms optimize for you learning and becoming a better human or to maximize ad revenue? Based on the answer the knowledge you gained is on average either deep and meaningful or shallow, bordering entertainment value. That is not to say you can’t find deep structured knowledge on youtube, but the proper way to support its creation is to directly pay…

What is the root cause of those incentives? Is it the platform, or the predominate audience on the platform? I’d argue the only reason subscription based platforms have a higher probability of offering quality is that the pay barrier creates a more filtered user base that prefers quality. If a platform dependent on ad revenue had some other barrier to entry, like content only accessible to an audience that preferred…

> What is the root cause of those incentives?

Belief that collecting more data gives them an edge in targetting customers, with an assumption that user_analyze.py can think like humans and optimally target users.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#74

Post by kgin »

The key thrust of this is that at Facebook specifically, the company is agnostic and amoral about the uses or effects of facebook, and the only goal is maximizing attention to be sold by any means necessary.

I don't know anyone who works at Facebook at high enough of a level to know if this checks out, but I'm curious if it does.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#75

Post by ffpip »

RussianCow wrote: post #54
hansvm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they could potentially make a larger steady income stream if they also had ads. It happened to cable TV, it happened when HTC introduced ads to their tiles or timeline or whatever it was called, ordering food online you'll get spammed when you try to checkout to buy their new promotional item (even if you already have it in your cart), and so on. If ads aren't a perfect fit then they'll still try to add other rev…

I get that, but an ad-free experience is the main benefit of subscribing to YouTube Premium. If they introduce ads to it, why would anyone pay for it?

They will limit the number of videos you can watch every month.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#76

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #62
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who are happy to read it do owe them a revenue stream if they want a website to continue. To be perfectly clear I have no desire to see any ads, and I don't cos I block pretty much every last one (squid) but if there are sites that are worth reading, like from here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25157722 well, author's got to make money for the time they put in. Advertisers can die in rotting heaps,…

I read articles online before the advertisements came. I'll read them again after the advertisements are gone.

All I hear is "I want free stuff". I'm not saying you should bleed yourself dry for them, would a couple of pounds/dollars a month (when you have paid work) to put rent-seeking ad men out of a job and to support OSS software development be so bad; would you even notice it?

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#77

Post by freeone3000 »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #76
freeone3000 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read articles online before the advertisements came. I'll read them again after the advertisements are gone.

All I hear is "I want free stuff". I'm not saying you should bleed yourself dry for them, would a couple of pounds/dollars a month (when you have paid work) to put rent-seeking ad men out of a job and to support OSS software development be so bad; would you even notice it?

There is no indication that throwing money at companies decreases ads. We had newspapers, magazines, cable, and now Hulu and Amazon video and the NYT webpage. They'll gladly take my money and serve me ads.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#78

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #77
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I hear is "I want free stuff". I'm not saying you should bleed yourself dry for them, would a couple of pounds/dollars a month (when you have paid work) to put rent-seeking ad men out of a job and to support OSS software development be so bad; would you even notice it?

There is no indication that throwing money at companies decreases ads. We had newspapers, magazines, cable, and now Hulu and Amazon video and the NYT webpage. They'll gladly take my money and serve me ads.

If you look at the website mentioned before at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25157722, where are the ads? How long can the guy keep putting out high quality stuff without pay do you think.

And what about OSS devs who have their stuff used by you but you won't pay?

> There is no indication that throwing money at companies decreases ads

Pocket change isn't "throwing money". But the converse is true, you don't pay, ads appear. If not, where - be specific - does the money to run the site come from?

Also as someone pointed out before at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25179379 "You can pay for YouTube premium and get rid of ads" so it seems paying does indeed decrease ads. There's the evidence.

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#79

Post by freeone3000 »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #78
freeone3000 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no indication that throwing money at companies decreases ads. We had newspapers, magazines, cable, and now Hulu and Amazon video and the NYT webpage. They'll gladly take my money and serve me ads.

If you look at the website mentioned before at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25157722 , where are the ads? How long can the guy keep putting out high quality stuff without pay do you think. And what about OSS devs who have their stuff used by you but you won't pay? > There is no indication that throwing money at companies decreases ads Pocket change isn't "throwing money". But the converse is true, you don't p…

Hulu and Cable also used to be ad-free. I believe that much like Amazon Video, YouTube Premium will only be ad-free for a limited time and then the ads will start to creep in again, because while not earning any money is not sustainable, no amount of money is "enough".

Re: You Are the Product (2017)

#80

Post by throwaway_pdp09 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #79
throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the website mentioned before at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25157722 , where are the ads? How long can the guy keep putting out high quality stuff without pay do you think. And what about OSS devs who have their stuff used by you but you won't pay? > There is no indication that throwing money at companies decreases ads Pocket change isn't "throwing money". But the converse is true, you don't p…

Hulu and Cable also used to be ad-free. I believe that much like Amazon Video, YouTube Premium will only be ad-free for a limited time and then the ads will start to creep in again, because while not earning any money is not sustainable, no amount of money is "enough".

Now we're talking. They need to make cash to survive but beyond that they get greedy, right? So, if agreed on that, we can now talk about blocking ads or cancelling subscriptions where they abuse the user, but perhaps still pay those people (like the linked website) who need it.
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