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Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#71

Post by bloodorange »

smabie wrote: post #64
AsyncAwait wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us. The U.S. already does that. Why is that any better?

Would you rather have the US tell you what to do or China?

While there may be some negative news coverage of China's actions, most of them are within or at their borders.

I have yet to see recent news of them bombing other countries, kidnapping people from around the world and destabilising regions around the world.

In truth, I'd rather have neither of them bullying others but if I had to choose, I think the less violent bully is a better choice.

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#72

Post by kyriakos »

fakedang wrote: post #47
rebuilder wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is on BBC.com's frontpage.

Yeah, and how many mainlander Europeans read the BBC in English?

Probably a lot of them and even if they don't journalists do as BBC is the source for many articles that are later being translated and editorialized in local newspapers.

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#73

Post by AsyncAwait »

smabie wrote: post #64
AsyncAwait wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us. The U.S. already does that. Why is that any better?

Would you rather have the US tell you what to do or China?

Neither. I would like there however to be a credible power to challenge U.S. policy, perhaps China even, so that it's hard for both sides to get aggressive policies implemented internationally as there's credible pushback.

Right now, there's practically no pushback on crippling U.S. sanctions against Iran or Venezuela for example.

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#74

Post by AsyncAwait »

throwaway189262 wrote: post #67
AsyncAwait wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us. The U.S. already does that. Why is that any better?

If china bullies too much the US and Europe will ally together against them. The difference between the US and China's government is that almost nobody likes China. The US, at least before recent political developments, tries to make sure that agreements benefit both sides. The US is also a democracy that respects freedom of the press and human rights to a degree. China doesn't give a shit about any of that.

> If china bullies too much the US and Europe will ally together against them.

Right. My problem is that the U.S. already is bullying too much and nobody pushes back against them, if it takes China to do it, so be it. I wish the EU to grow a backbone, but it is unlikely to happen.

I mean you have the U.S. sanctioning MEDICINE to Iran in the middle of a global pandemic and threatening Europe with secondary sanctions if we help out.

You have the U.S. sanctioning ICC officials for wanting to investigate U.S. war crimes. You have the U.S. arguing in the open[1] that it is free to kill its own citizens without due process.

I'd like someone to push against that, may as well be China if the EU is not up to the task, as it has repeatedly shown.

1 - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20201117/12384545723/gover...

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#75

Post by fakedang »

bserge wrote: post #62
mschuster91 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here, you're right. The biggest part of the problem is that historically there are only three superpowers in the EU - France, UK and Germany. The UK is gone off the rails, the French can't pick up the slack for everyone else alone and us Germans are (out of very valid historical concern) extremely wary of pulling our weight on the international stage. Add to this that the EU is corrosively fractured, nowhere n…

Is Germany really that reserved because of the last world war? I mean, I get that it was bad, but it's history. Everyone else who has a very similar history (even though it's painted in a better light by the media) has moved on.

West Germany had been very proactive under the Adenauer years to abolish all forms of Nazism. In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment).

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#76

Post by toyg »

john_minsk wrote: post #35
andrepd wrote: post #31

This is profoundly depressing. The fact that an EU defence conference is being held... on Zoom, is truly a microcosm of what has been the strategic policy of the EU for the past 20-30 years. We have sold off our independence, out advantages economic and otherwise, for pennies . For minuscule short-term gains, we have sold off our industry, our tech, to a hostile and totalitarian government. Well when I say "we" I mea…

It is not that simple. The minute China does it - they stand alone. The whole premise of outsourcing manufacturing to China will die. No one will trust them to do it. In my opinion they won’t do it

The setup of China being the world’s workshop is temporary. Chinese leadership is using foreign capital to bootstrap their internal market. They will be self-sufficient in less than a generation.

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#77

Post by toyg »

hawk_ wrote: post #57
tdons wrote: post #45

What's more depressing is that this official has GMail open. How ridiculous is that? Which defense minister outside of the USA uses Google Mail? After Snowden, really? I want to facepalm so hard right now.

Unfortunately the bureaucrats still go through dated curriculum to get where they are and there no incentives to keep up with the times, technology or otherwise. These same people decide on the criteria for the incoming class and the vicious cycle goes on.

Let’s be fair: many of these “bureaucrats” went to school when the modern internet didn’t exist. I’m in my early 40s and lived “the new economy” in my teenage years, most 50+ people would have no real familiarity with this sort of tech. Conversely, a lot of under-40 politicians and bureaucrats do grasp the internet - sometimes unfortunately so, considering they can be among the strongest supporters of draconian censorship.

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#78

Post by mschuster91 »

fakedang wrote: post #75
bserge wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Germany really that reserved because of the last world war? I mean, I get that it was bad, but it's history. Everyone else who has a very similar history (even though it's painted in a better light by the media) has moved on.

West Germany had been very proactive under the Adenauer years to abolish all forms of Nazism. In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment).

> In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment).

Sorry, that's wrong. Eastern (Communist) Germany painted itself as an "anti-fascist state by definition", but in reality there were awful lots of Neo-Nazis active in the GDR - and after the Mauerfall Western cadres only had to move in to find faithful people. It's estimated that there were 15.000 (!) Neo-Nazis at the time. See https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/die-ddr-und-ihre-neonazis-rea... or https://www.zeit.de/2012/08/DDR-Nazis for more details.

This "the DDR was antifascist and there were no Nazis there" nonsense is a huge part of why the neo-Nazi problem in the former GDR was overlooked until 2015ff with PEGIDA and other violent far right movements appearing (for many uninitiated) "out of thin air".

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#79

Post by fakedang »

mschuster91 wrote: post #78
fakedang wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West Germany had been very proactive under the Adenauer years to abolish all forms of Nazism. In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment).

> In East Germany, the Soviets did that, albeit violently often, which is why there is a higher rate of Neo-Nazism in the east (apart from the usual issues such as poverty and unemployment). Sorry, that's wrong . Eastern (Communist) Germany painted itself as an "anti-fascist state by definition", but in reality there were awful lots of Neo-Nazis active in the GDR - and after the Mauerfall Western cadres only had to m…

I did not say the DDR was anti-fascist or something. But there was a concerted effort by the Soviets to purge all forms of Nazism actively - which effectively failed, as per the evidence you provide yourself. A large part of the population resented the Soviet rule and effectively turned to Fascism as a reprieve (something I thought was implied so I skipped mentioning it explicitly). The Soviets went, but Fascism was there to stay.

Re: Dutch journalist gatecrashes EU defence video conference

#80

Post by rosmax_1337 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #68
bserge wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Germany really that reserved because of the last world war? I mean, I get that it was bad, but it's history. Everyone else who has a very similar history (even though it's painted in a better light by the media) has moved on.

Germany caused not one but two world wars and is, despite being beaten almost to death after ww2, once again the dominant power in the EU. Let's face it we usually get what we want even without having a competitive military - if we had there would not be much to stop us. I'm actually grateful that our leaders have been and still are mindful of that fact.

I'll give you last word if you reply to this comment, since this discussion seems like something that generally doesn't belong on this site.

But, Germany did not cause two world wars.

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