Earlier quoted context omitted.
"yes you can sell here, we only need to know the ingredients and know-how of this vaccine to approve its safety"
Isn’t it like that in the rest of the world?
Yes, but without blatant copyright and patent infringement
Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
71–80 of 446 posts
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, I wouldn't be so happy. Think about it. Out of million people only small percentage would become infected with covid and of that, only small percentage would die. On the other hand, vaccine must be distributed to everybody. Alternatively to people who, by occupation, have to contact many other people, daily. We don't know yet if there are complications from the vaccine. It is not possible to judge long term eff…
Is there an example of a vaccine in history that produced no initial side effects but only very long term side effects (ie. several years later)?
I haven't seen that, but I'd be careful to draw the meaningfulness of that metric, as there has also never been an mRNA vaccine deployed until this year.
That said, the large size of these studies should be extremely comforting to people.
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is it not true? Most are 85-90% but the jump from high 80s --> 95% is massive,
Well a one second google search says chickenpox is 98% effective, so already that's not unheard of. I would think extremely low p values are not just normative, but required for a vaccine to reach public acceptance. This vaccine is noteworthy for the speed at which it was developed, but its not the first really good vaccine. edit: and because I'm getting a lot of downvotes for some reason, Anthrax, Measles, Rubella,…
> required for a vaccine to reach public acceptance.
This leads to frightening considerations. The reason FDA testing is so stringent is that trying to explain statistics along with a myriad of other fields, that are at this point likely too complex and exhaustive for any one human to fully comprehend even if they spent their entire lifetime learning, to the "public" for them to truly make an informed decision is a futile effort.
A vaccine is no doubt a great thing and much needed. Two things bother me very greatly about it:
1) A lot of testing was skipped. This will be injected into tens, possibly hundreds, of millions of people long before we even know the long term side effects. If by some very low chance this introduces an inheritable change, and if by an even lower chance that inheritable change leads to genetic collapse in 10-20 generations - just to be very clear, this is extremely unlikely - we have opened the window to humanity's end.
2) A far more realistic ethical concern is what happens to states (god forbid if the fed does it) who legally require this (unconstitutionally, of course, since most modern laws already are and nobody seems to have an issue with this) like New York who've already had a number of terrifying assembly bills for something similar, if this backfires and causes permanent harm to people?
The human body is incredibly complex. A doctor's oath includes "above all, do no harm", and most of the people that will be vaccinated have a 90%+ survival chance. Granted, the above is a very myopic view that completely ignores large scale economics - so please bare with me and use your medicine/ethics hat for it. Is this the right thing to do in the long run?
As a country, the US has proven track record of making stupid decisions in tough times (911 -> PATRIOT, etc).
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#74Well just like I don't immediately update to the latest OS I think I'll wait for the beta testing to happen :)
Same. I'm not an anti-vaxxer or anything like that. But I think "don't use version 1.0" advice applies here just like it does for software. Especially given the possibility that things have been "hurried" in the name of expediency in terms of getting the vaccine(s) developed, tested, and approved. The good news, in a sort of perverse sense, is that some delay to see what happens with "early adopters" is kinda inevita…
If the enemy is charging my base and someone offers me armor I'm not going to wait for all my fellow soldiers to try it out and see what happens.
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#75Well just like I don't immediately update to the latest OS I think I'll wait for the beta testing to happen :)
Do you think private companies will require vaccination to return to work? *Here is an article I found on the subject. Essentially stating in general employers could require vaccination. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/08/26/coronavirus-...
I think it will depend on the political climate of the particular workspace.
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can't rush Stage III of vaccine trials. 95% with a p of < .0001 is unheard of in Vaccines. This is an amazing feat for science.
Sorry, but what does p stand for?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-value
In this context it means that the probability of getting the result they got, in the assumption that vaccine does not work, is less than 1 in 10000.
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Same. I'm not an anti-vaxxer or anything like that. But I think "don't use version 1.0" advice applies here just like it does for software. Especially given the possibility that things have been "hurried" in the name of expediency in terms of getting the vaccine(s) developed, tested, and approved. The good news, in a sort of perverse sense, is that some delay to see what happens with "early adopters" is kinda inevita…
> But I think "don't use version 1.0" advice applies here just like it does for software. No it doesn’t, because vaccine development is more like bridge building than software development.
Can you pull out the threads on that argument a little? Taken at face value, it's not meaningful. Bridges launch with huge, sometimes catastrophic problems.
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#78This will save lives. However I imagine most people will end up getting the Oxford vaccine, that doesn't have the storage requirements or need a second dose and is a fraction of the cost.
I believe the Oxford vaccine does require a booster. It’s the J&J that is single shot.
Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#79This will save lives. However I imagine most people will end up getting the Oxford vaccine, that doesn't have the storage requirements or need a second dose and is a fraction of the cost.
Well, I wouldn't be so happy. Think about it. Out of million people only small percentage would become infected with covid and of that, only small percentage would die. On the other hand, vaccine must be distributed to everybody. Alternatively to people who, by occupation, have to contact many other people, daily. We don't know yet if there are complications from the vaccine. It is not possible to judge long term eff…
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Re: Pfizer submits Covid vaccine to FDA for approval, to distribute in December
#80This will save lives. However I imagine most people will end up getting the Oxford vaccine, that doesn't have the storage requirements or need a second dose and is a fraction of the cost.
Well, I wouldn't be so happy. Think about it. Out of million people only small percentage would become infected with covid and of that, only small percentage would die. On the other hand, vaccine must be distributed to everybody. Alternatively to people who, by occupation, have to contact many other people, daily. We don't know yet if there are complications from the vaccine. It is not possible to judge long term eff…
Putting aside the deplorable ethics of freeloading in this matter, I think your analysis of the situation is objectively problematical.
It is not plausible that, absent a vaccine or other cure, only a small percentage will contract it. The evidence strongly suggests that a large fraction of the population will end up catching it at some point.
We already have plenty of evidence how that goes, in the chicken-pox outbreaks in the communities that have chosen not vaccinate, presenting a threat both to themselves and others. This virus is known to be much more dangerous.
You seem to weigh your hypothetical problems of a vaccine much more heavily than the actual problems of the virus.