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So you've made a mistake and it's public

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Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#71

Post by justin_oaks »

TriNetra wrote: post #4
justin_oaks wrote: post #2

> What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake? > When you see others making mistakes, first help them see their mistakes and deal with them (e.g. by recycling this text, or by independently offering your analysis and answers to Steps 1 and 2 above). > Remember you make mistakes too, and be tolerant of the time it may take people to accept that they have made a mistake. (But you don't need to allow th…

The funny thing is, if you ponder for a while, you'll realize you'd have done some similar mistakes. But such reflection requires being honest to oneself and setting aside/rising above one's ego and doing an unbias reflection for few moments. Then a spontaneous smile will light up your face and unconsciously somewhere you've broken some string of ego otherwise holding you tightly all through your life.

Indeed. Whenever I get cut off on the freeway, I try to remember the times when I accidentally cut someone off but had no way to express "Oops, sorry!"

We all get it wrong sometimes.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#72

Post by pavel_lishin »

macspoofing wrote: post #23

I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual, especially in the current moral panic climate. Mobs don't accept apologies. Public apologies stamp official guilt on the individual and therefore serve as a license for the mob to further punish them because now they have admitted their fault and therefore are 'officially' guilty of the crime. Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphori…

> No. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as Judge Brandeis observed. Proper handling of mistakes is a sterling quality in anyone, and particularly important in a leader or public servant of any kind. It pays long-term dividends.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#73

Post by PragmaticPulp »

willeh wrote: post #14

This is purely my personal opinion, but the wikipedia community seems like one of the most toxic communities on the web. The people contributing to WP - the editors - seem more concerned with coming up with Kafka-esque processes to introduce to the community than making the actual work of making an encyclopaedia. Perhaps the only area where editors are as zealous they are about creating obscure processes, is in polic…

> The people contributing to WP - the editors - seem more concerned with coming up with Kafka-esque processes to introduce to the community than making the actual work of making an encyclopaedia

This is one of the biggest challenges with building a self-governing online community: The people with the most time, energy, and desire to be in charge are often not the people with the most to contribute. As the bureaucracy grows, actual contributors are increasingly disincentivized from participating in the governance because it becomes such a distraction to actually producing content. At the extremes, these communities end up with highly-political community governance that spends much of their time with political maneuvering and focusing on a handful of fringe issues, while the actual content creators end up operating largely independently.

If you ignore the politicking and realize it's mostly a distraction, there's often good work still happening on the core content.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#74

Post by anuila »

justin_oaks wrote: post #2

> What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake? > When you see others making mistakes, first help them see their mistakes and deal with them (e.g. by recycling this text, or by independently offering your analysis and answers to Steps 1 and 2 above). > Remember you make mistakes too, and be tolerant of the time it may take people to accept that they have made a mistake. (But you don't need to allow th…

I have trouble handling others’ mistakes if I’ve corrected them before, they acknowledged the mistake, but they keep doing them.

What am I supposed to do with people who won’t learn from their mistakes (in the workplace)?

I’m directly affected by them as they increase my workload, so I can’t just ignore them.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#75

Post by jmartrican »

mannykannot wrote: post #55
macspoofing wrote: post #23

I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual, especially in the current moral panic climate. Mobs don't accept apologies. Public apologies stamp official guilt on the individual and therefore serve as a license for the mob to further punish them because now they have admitted their fault and therefore are 'officially' guilty of the crime. Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphori…

Denying that you have made a mistake is likely to piss off the people who would otherwise be willing to move on. As the "mob", which may or may not exist in any given situation, is not going to be swayed by protests of innocence, the former are the only people you should care about.

Agreed. Apologizing may keep the mob size small and insignificant.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#76

Post by textgel »

iamdbtoo wrote: post #68
coward8675309 wrote: post #61

There are few more odious Internet pass-times than relentlessly harassing someone for some perceived infraction until they give an imperfect apology and then nitpicking until they ritually humiliate themselves exactly according to your wishes. This document is a would-be harasser's checklist for extracting forced confessions and atonement schedules.

I'm curious, what kind of mistake are you envisioning in this scenario? While I do agree with you for some things, some mistakes may actually be severe and need correction in a public forum and it has nothing to do with harassement.

Plenty of easy and obvious ones. Dr Matt Taylor being attacked for an anime shirt is the first that comes to mind.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#77

Post by draw_down »

jmartrican wrote: post #75
mannykannot wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying that you have made a mistake is likely to piss off the people who would otherwise be willing to move on. As the "mob", which may or may not exist in any given situation, is not going to be swayed by protests of innocence, the former are the only people you should care about.

Agreed. Apologizing may keep the mob size small and insignificant.

macspoofing is right. This stuff works opposite to how you and GP are describing.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#78

Post by GCA10 »

Step 0 is admirable. I've come across business cultures where people got ahead (really!) by "outrunning their mistakes." Lots of rapid promotions and job transfers, leaving messes behind them -- and then blaming problems on their inept successors, or other saboteurs, etc. No accepting of responsibility.

Most of those places eventually go bust, but they can ruin a lot of people's lives before the final collapse happens.

Step 3.2 feels forced and a little Orwellian. Even something as hazy as invoking "bad judgment" -- and leaving the scene -- is often sufficient, at least at first. If errant people need a bit more time to process reality's sudden slap in the face, I'm in favor of giving it to them.

Eventually a lot of them do reach a fuller understanding. Or they redeem themselves in other ways. In the right settings, a little bit of mercy can be very powerful

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#79

Post by caymanjim »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #8

I like that. I'm quite good at apologizing, because I need to do it so often. I get lots of practice. The American abhorrence for admitting fault and/or apologizing is quite mystifying to me. It's really corrosive. I've spent 40 years, promptly admitting mistakes, and repairing, where possible. WFM. YMMV.

> The American abhorrence for admitting fault and/or apologizing is quite mystifying to me. It's really corrosive.

I don't accept this premise. Americans don't have a lot of the cultural baggage that leads to this. If anything, Americans are quick to admit fault and address root causes. We don't have a cultural history of beating around the bush, saving face, deferring to elders who are clearly wrong, etc. Individual exceptions abound, but I think on the whole Americans are ready to admit fault most of the time.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#80

Post by maccard »

Zelphyr wrote: post #62

Something that I would include with the apology part (the text may have covered this and I missed it) is that apologies don't have but's. "I'm sorry I funded Wikimedia Antarctica but..." Everything you say after the but negates everything you say before it and now you're only trying to justify your actions. Simply, "I'm sorry I funded Wikimedia Antarctica." and proceed to describe what you learned: "I neglected to lo…

I make an effort to do this too, I've found that it's made me more cynical of apologies on occasion. I almost feel like I'm waiting for a "but".
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