A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison • Hacker News Board

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#71

Post by paganel » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #27

sgt101 wrote: post #11

One horror is the length of sentence - 10 years for a non violent burglary.

>10 years for a non violent burglary. There are two common ways to get a crazy prison sentence. Drug and/or gun possession often acts as a multiplier on sentencing guidelines for whatever the underlying crime is. Multiple contacts with the system (three strikes laws and parole/probation violations) tend to have compounding sentences so screwing up on parole or probation can net you an additional sentence than in addi…

> three strikes laws

The three-strikes law is pure abomination, I've first learned about it watching "Oz" (the TV series) in the early 2000s, couldn't believe that that was real (I don't live in the States). 15 years have passed and there is still no real conversation about abolishing it.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#72

Post by bigbubba » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

99_00 wrote: post #54

somebodythere wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The societal failings like prisons existing in the first place? The police and courts who supply a steady stream of fodder to the prison-industrial complex? The legislators who create innumerable and overbroad laws to give the above carte blanche to abuse vulnerable groups? By all means, let us get rid of all of these things.

I'm suggesting helping people before they interact with the police and courts.

What help would or could you give to an unrepentant rapist before they are captured by the police?

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#73

Post by mprev » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #53

fuzzybear3965 wrote: post #8

What's his plan? Take it day by day? Watch his back? Also (infer no adversarial tone), he seems to imply that he needs to be prepared to defend himself against attack, ostensibly using his lingering Krav Maga skill and instincts. Does that violate his pacifism? Maybe "pacifist", in this context, should be understood to mean "unaffiliated with any gang".

I'm a pacifist and a martial artist. My first approach is de-escalation. That has failed, and I've been attacked by people, and still did not want to hurt those people. Nor will I allow people to simply beat me up. I've defended myself by deflecting and avoiding their attacks, using their momentum against them and whatnot; and when necessary, various holds or joint locks. I've also successfully fled situations where…

Serious question but how do you get in so many situations that lead to violence?

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#74

Post by mLuby » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:37 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #58

99_00 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and our focus should be on correcting the societal failures that lead to people ending up there. Because prisons aren't going to away. But we can all agree that we should help people who need it.

> Because prisons aren't going to away. They should. I don't think this is something I'm willing to change my mind on. Prisons are literally one of the worst things we've made. They serve no purpose other than to dehumanize, rape, assault, and other fucked shit to "undesirables." It allows us to put problems to be solved to a later date, instead of addressing them head on and making sure it doesn't happen. Prison sho…

> They serve no purpose other than to

Come on, you know that's not true.

Prisons exist primarily to control threats from society. And secondarily to punish people for getting caught breaking rules, partially for vengeance and partially for deterrence.

Societies have tried other methods of controlling threats beyond imprisonment, including (but definitely not limited to) ankle bracelets, public shaming, shunning, exile, offender registries, altering brains via chemicals, brainwashing, torture, or surgery, altering bodies via sterilization or mutilation, death, even collective punishment.

So prisons aren't great, but they're better than many of the alternatives.

On a personal note: that crime of any kind is even possible in a 100% controlled environment speaks to the malicious incompetence of those administering the prisons, and to our shameful collective thirst for vengeance. As with people, judge a society by how they treat the least powerful.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#75

Post by chrisco255 » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:43 PM UTC

avs733 wrote: post #66

hnracer wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it intentionally racist to hold the perception that drug users and criminals are inherently violent?

It isn't intentionally racist to hold the belief...but the belief is an intentional construction to justify racist policing. Off the cuff and reducing a complicated discussion to somethign simple you can start here: https://medium.com/equityorg/reefer-madness-the-racist-roots... The early representations used to vilify marijuana were part of jim crow efforts to ensure racial hierarchies. They included representations…

A lot of this is narrative and you really have to be skeptical of any narrative that is too clean and simple and flat to describe a complex situation. Crime rates have gone down dramatically in the past couple decades, so we have the luxury to apply hindsight and see what we got wrong and what we got right. But you should generally assume positive intent. Crime was a very serious problem in the U.S. in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Take a look at NYC from 1965-2019: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

Murder rates were 5x higher in 1990 than today. It was a big, big problem. It was believed that drugs drove a lot of that and funded gang activity...some of which was absolutely true. Some of which was absolutely exaggerated.

The victims of crimes are on the other side of this equation of justice. They also deserve justice and consideration. The ideal of our system is for the law to apply the minimum sentence to prevent the crime from re-occurring again. I think it unfortunately oscillates with the moods of the moment, but if murder rates were to suddenly return to NYC 1990 levels in your town, and someone you know or love was murdered, you might be singing a different tune.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#76

Post by Skunkleton » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #67

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't enough. Legalisation needs to happen, even for things I wouldn't touch. It isn't just about breaking a cycle, though not shaming addiction is helpful. It isn't just addicts that do drugs: I've met folks that do cocaine twice a year, for example. Few folks are addicted to LSD, and most folks only take MDMA occasionally. There is more than one way to take heroin, and folks do use occasionally. All drugs I woul…

Last sentence is especially valid - decriminalization does absolutely 0 with organized crime earning tens of billions every year from all addictives. The same folks that deal in kidnappings, ransom, contract killing, weapons smuggling and many more. As a bonus health of patients(addicts) is not deteriorating so rapidly due to crap they take along with actual drugs, so bonuses go back to whole society in form of lower…

> Last sentence is especially valid - decriminalization does absolutely 0 with organized crime earning tens of billions every year from all addictives. The same folks that deal in kidnappings, ransom, contract killing, weapons smuggling and many more.

Surely decriminalization is an improvement.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#77

Post by asdff » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #67

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't enough. Legalisation needs to happen, even for things I wouldn't touch. It isn't just about breaking a cycle, though not shaming addiction is helpful. It isn't just addicts that do drugs: I've met folks that do cocaine twice a year, for example. Few folks are addicted to LSD, and most folks only take MDMA occasionally. There is more than one way to take heroin, and folks do use occasionally. All drugs I woul…

Last sentence is especially valid - decriminalization does absolutely 0 with organized crime earning tens of billions every year from all addictives. The same folks that deal in kidnappings, ransom, contract killing, weapons smuggling and many more. As a bonus health of patients(addicts) is not deteriorating so rapidly due to crap they take along with actual drugs, so bonuses go back to whole society in form of lower…

As long as it is more profitable to sell drugs illegally they will continually be sold and trafficked illegally no matter the letter of the law. Even marijuana is grown and trafficked by the cartel in CA, because of the onerous licensing process and the heavy taxation imposed by the state and local governments make it more profitable to operate on the black market.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-28/aguanga-...

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#78

Post by garmaine » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #68

thisisnico wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, 10 YEARS for a non-violent property crime??? What.

Came in here for this comment. As an European the United States needs proper reform of its judicial/law system, or whatever you call the dreadful thing where you can imprison a person for 10 years because of non-violent property crime. Unfortunately I've read that the new VP had built her career partially on being tough on crime, hope that those people were wrong/lying or (if they were correct) that she'd be able to…

Not just the VP. The new president-elect is the one behind the “tough on crime” laws that brought us to where we are: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/6/20/18677998/j...

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#79

Post by asdff » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #12

tall wrote: post #2

This is a bleak reminder that prisons are a crime against humanity, no deserves to live in constant fear for their own survival. Not only that but prisoners are a very vulnerable population often exploited for labor, medical experiments and general abuse.

I agree there's a lot to be done to reduce the number of prisoners. But at the end of the day, what do you do about members of society who greatly harm others? (murder, rape, etc)? I can't think of any effective solutions which aren't prison, death penalty, or prison-disguised-as-something-else (like a hospital). Maybe exile? What's your philosophy in those cases?

There are examples from around the world of prisons that aren't anything like the US model. It's not a hypothetical, it's a reality that isn't brought up in US political debate because moneyed interests favor the status quo.

Re: A pacifist's plan to survive the violent world of prison

#80

Post by sandworm101 » Tue, Nov 10, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

celim307 wrote: post #3

Is it common to house non-violent offenders with ones convicted of violent crimes?

>> Is it common to house non-violent offenders with ones convicted of violent crimes?

Bigger issue: Is it very common to house non-convicts, people not found guilty of anything, alongside violent actual convicts. Go to any US jail. The number of people literally waiting for their day in court is usually greater than those convicted and serving time.

(Note I said jail, not "prison". Prisons are for longer sentences. Convicts in US jails are generally serving less than a year.)