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An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

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Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#71

Post by UncleMeat »

coldtea wrote: post #68
hnarn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole idea that being without a phone is somehow liberating — and just not using it is definitely not as pure and wholly amazing as being completely without it — is to me a silly and predictable response to the very real drawbacks of high tech modern life. Phones have value. That’s why people use them. Pretending they don’t and that we’re all brainwashed doesn’t change that reality. Here’s an example: I want to…

> Phones have value. That’s why people use them Now try the same line but with heroin, or fast food, or whatever people use to their detriment... Besides, anything that has value also has an opportunity cost, which can be much more important than the value inherent in the thing... > Here’s an example: I want to take public transport to a grocery store. I walk out the door. I don’t have my phone. First of all, if I do…

You’ve never got to a store only to realize they are closed on Mondays or something?

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#72

Post by hnarn »

coldtea wrote: post #68
hnarn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole idea that being without a phone is somehow liberating — and just not using it is definitely not as pure and wholly amazing as being completely without it — is to me a silly and predictable response to the very real drawbacks of high tech modern life. Phones have value. That’s why people use them. Pretending they don’t and that we’re all brainwashed doesn’t change that reality. Here’s an example: I want to…

> Phones have value. That’s why people use them Now try the same line but with heroin, or fast food, or whatever people use to their detriment... Besides, anything that has value also has an opportunity cost, which can be much more important than the value inherent in the thing... > Here’s an example: I want to take public transport to a grocery store. I walk out the door. I don’t have my phone. First of all, if I do…

This is exactly the kind of absurd, completely surreal type of argumentation I’m talking about. You’re literally comparing a smartphone to one of the most dangerous and addictive opioids available, responsible for 15 000 overdose deaths annually in the US alone.

And in case you perhaps didn’t actually read my comment, I pointed out the fact that I was one of those people who visited grocery stores in the 90s, which is why I know that doing it today is easier than it was back then. That’s the whole point. Falling back on childish exaggeration like “oh I wonder how ANYONE managed to do this before” obviously doesn’t disprove the fact that what was possible before is now still possible but easier.

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#74

Post by talentedcoin »

altitudinous wrote: post #58

An interesting experiment is to leave your phone at home when you go out. Try it. I don't mean take your phone anyway but don't use it. That is not the same thing. The value in this experiment is not to have your phone to fall back on. Initially you feel anxiety, but it soon becomes quite liberating. Having to look at road signs to navigate, relying on personal interaction or reading notices to find things out etc et…

This is like saying leaving home without your wallet is liberating. It’s true in a sense, but it’s also damned inconvenient depending on what you want to do.

Then again, if you truly feel anxious without your phone all the time, maybe it’s worth a shot ...

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#75

Post by akiselev »

reedf1 wrote: post #24
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social media and video games are addictive in the same way that cigarettes, alcohol, etc., are. Worse, video games and social media are now explicitly targeted by big business to get kids addicted as early as possible. It's a mess and we're heading for a huge shakedown and re-orientation in a generation. (At one point cigarettes were seen as a "not big deal" too.)

Everything is addictive, what matters is when the addiction subverts your intrinsic goals.I think what people need to be spared is some moralism about what your intrinsic goals "should" be. Some people's intrinsic goal is to be part of the culture of their time, and games do that just like books, movies, comics, what have you.

> Everything is addictive, what matters is when the addiction subverts your intrinsic goals.

Which is a hell of lot more prevalent when the addictive behavior is driven by a centralized market incentive.

Fentanyl - invented 1959 - didn't become a problem until the Sacklers' greed and fraudulent recommendations to doctors drove the opioid epidemic. Peace pipes and tobacco weren't a problem until the industrialized mass production of cancer sticks drove the manufacturers to reuse literally every ounce of waste through chemical reprocessing. I can't find the research right now but one paper I read on historical gambling mentioned that there is far less evidence of gambling as addictive behavior before urbanization because of a lack of opportunity and strong ties in small communities that kept both gamblers and bookies in line. It wasn't until the innovations in transportation in the 19th century that real estate speculators started building gambling enclaves like Atlantic City, Las Vegas, and the casinos along (and on) the Mississippi river.

Showing ads - aka manipulating human behavior - is now the most profitable. The same thing is going to happen now: the purveyors of the addiction will continue to drive the dystopia to its ultimate conclusion until it gets regulated into the ground (all of the above), loses the largest lawsuit in history and gets culturally sidelined (tobacco), and/or everything but the gains get dismantled (Sacklers).

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#76

Post by hnarn »

altitudinous wrote: post #70
hnarn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole idea that being without a phone is somehow liberating — and just not using it is definitely not as pure and wholly amazing as being completely without it — is to me a silly and predictable response to the very real drawbacks of high tech modern life. Phones have value. That’s why people use them. Pretending they don’t and that we’re all brainwashed doesn’t change that reality. Here’s an example: I want to…

You don't need a phone for any of the activities you described. Stores are pretty much open business hours, or 24 hours, they follow the same pattern. Or just show up and it is closed. Go somewhere else. Public transport runs to a schedule. Just show up and transport will show up within n minutes anyway, whether you know the time or nor. Or just use the timetable at the station. Yes, no music, just your thoughts. but…

The entire point is that you don’t need a phone to do any of this, just like you don’t need a spike gun if you have a hammer when building a house. If you feel that liberates you, go ahead and do whatever you want, but when you’re preaching to others about how they’re somehow going against our innate human nature, that’s when I get a bit annoyed.

Don’t you think it’s pretty obvious that this exact line of reasoning could be made against the use of books on public transport if we were discussing this in the 1800s? Why are you fine with distracting yourself with a book, but reading the news on a smartphone is somehow different?

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#77

Post by altitudinous »

talentedcoin wrote: post #74
altitudinous wrote: post #58

An interesting experiment is to leave your phone at home when you go out. Try it. I don't mean take your phone anyway but don't use it. That is not the same thing. The value in this experiment is not to have your phone to fall back on. Initially you feel anxiety, but it soon becomes quite liberating. Having to look at road signs to navigate, relying on personal interaction or reading notices to find things out etc et…

This is like saying leaving home without your wallet is liberating. It’s true in a sense, but it’s also damned inconvenient depending on what you want to do. Then again, if you truly feel anxious without your phone all the time, maybe it’s worth a shot ...

Well, clearly not having money is not comparable to not having a phone.

But you are just proving the OP original article. Why not just try something different rather than pointlessly arguing about the intricacies of it all on the internet

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#78

Post by hawkoy »

Icyphox wrote: post #63
Aeolun wrote: post #28

Yeaaaah, no. I think the reason most of india’s youth is on their phones is because they just have no real prospects in life and the phone is an escape mechanism.

Woah. That's a huge generalization. Why do you think all Indian youth have no prospects?

> Woah. That's a huge generalization.

What do you think the letter does?

But I will agree with fpip. India has so many fundamental problems that will require serious government and public change.

My state will not have enough drinking water for 30%+ of its population by 2030. Prices of food will go up as ground water becomes non existent. How do you think that will impact people?

Educated people are fleeing the country. They are willing to take any jobs to get out before it's too late.

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#79

Post by coldtea »

hnarn wrote: post #72
coldtea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Phones have value. That’s why people use them Now try the same line but with heroin, or fast food, or whatever people use to their detriment... Besides, anything that has value also has an opportunity cost, which can be much more important than the value inherent in the thing... > Here’s an example: I want to take public transport to a grocery store. I walk out the door. I don’t have my phone. First of all, if I do…

This is exactly the kind of absurd, completely surreal type of argumentation I’m talking about. You’re literally comparing a smartphone to one of the most dangerous and addictive opioids available, responsible for 15 000 overdose deaths annually in the US alone. And in case you perhaps didn’t actually read my comment, I pointed out the fact that I was one of those people who visited grocery stores in the 90s, which i…

>This is exactly the kind of absurd, completely surreal type of argumentation I’m talking about. You’re literally comparing a smartphone to one of the most dangerous and addictive opioids available, responsible for 15 000 overdose deaths annually in the US alone.

You've missed the whole point. I'm answering the crap argument "Phones have value. That’s why people use them." - showing that people use things that don't have value (and can even be hamrful) all the time.

It's not about the relative danger of phone vs heroin. It's about "people use it, thus it has value" is a crap argument.

In fact, I also included fast food (which people don't overdose from), on my counter-argument, which you conveniently ignored.

>And in case you perhaps didn’t actually read my comment, I pointed out the fact that I was one of those people who visited grocery stores in the 90s, which is why I know that doing it today is easier than it was back then. That’s the whole point.

No, the whole point is that it's only marginally easier, to the point of hardly being worth it just for those kind of conveniences, while creating its own problems, which can have a much worse impact in one's life than "I missed the grocery store open times"...

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2018/dopamine-smartphones-...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/171130090041.h...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235285321...

Re: An open letter to India’s youth: Get off that smartphone. It can destroy you

#80

Post by altitudinous »

hnarn wrote: post #76
altitudinous wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a phone for any of the activities you described. Stores are pretty much open business hours, or 24 hours, they follow the same pattern. Or just show up and it is closed. Go somewhere else. Public transport runs to a schedule. Just show up and transport will show up within n minutes anyway, whether you know the time or nor. Or just use the timetable at the station. Yes, no music, just your thoughts. but…

The entire point is that you don’t need a phone to do any of this, just like you don’t need a spike gun if you have a hammer when building a house. If you feel that liberates you, go ahead and do whatever you want, but when you’re preaching to others about how they’re somehow going against our innate human nature, that’s when I get a bit annoyed. Don’t you think it’s pretty obvious that this exact line of reasoning c…

You seem to be trying to describe the point of my own post to me, I don't get why you would do that. I know the point of my own post.

As I have just written to someone else above - you are just proving the OP original article. Why not just try something different rather than pointlessly arguing about the intricacies of it all on the internet..

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