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Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

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Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#71
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can actually measure the mass of photons. If you shine light on an object, the light pushes on the object and the object is accelerated. If the object absorbs the light, there's a certain amount of pressure, and if the object reflects the light, there's even more pressure. This has practical applications. Optical tweezers are made of light's force acting on small objects. "Optical tweezers are used in biology and…

Radiation pressure is due to momentum, not mass. I have no idea where you got that idea, since the same sort of sources that teach you about these concepts are very emphatic about photons being massless. Here is one of the 3-5 interesting facts I remember from my modern physics class: Two photons going the same direction have no mass, but two photons in different directions do have mass. Unfortunately I don't remembe…

> Two photons going the same direction have no mass, but two photons in different directions do have mass.

This is not limited to photons, although the first part, "no mass" is due to the rest mass of photons being zero.

Two objects of any kind whatsoever have more mass going in different directions than going in the same direction.

Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#72
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's completely wrong. Humans were just as smart 3000 years ago as they were today. The difference between today and back then is that people were much poorer and didnt receive an education. Their jobs were farming which didnt require things we consider essential like reading or writing which meant they stay unchallenged for their entire life. When you look at the rich elite or rich cities in the past then you see…

This is a nice theory, but what is the proof? Were people just as smart 30,000 years ago? What about 300,000 or 3 million years ago? How do you set the time scale? When was the boundary when people became smart?

We can look at the genetic changes and timeframe of them, and how certain mutations have spread - novel changes in our species are not that frequent on the historical timescale. People 3000 years ago are the same with respect to their biology, so they have to be "just as smart"; hominids 300,000 years ago are different in some aspects so for them we can't really know how "smart" they were, perhaps they were as smart, perhaps they were not.

Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#73
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can actually measure the mass of photons. If you shine light on an object, the light pushes on the object and the object is accelerated. If the object absorbs the light, there's a certain amount of pressure, and if the object reflects the light, there's even more pressure. This has practical applications. Optical tweezers are made of light's force acting on small objects. "Optical tweezers are used in biology and…

Radiation pressure is due to momentum, not mass. I have no idea where you got that idea, since the same sort of sources that teach you about these concepts are very emphatic about photons being massless. Here is one of the 3-5 interesting facts I remember from my modern physics class: Two photons going the same direction have no mass, but two photons in different directions do have mass. Unfortunately I don't remembe…

> Radiation pressure is due to momentum, not mass. I have no idea where you got that idea, since the same sort of sources that teach you about these concepts are very emphatic about photons being massless.

You are right, I was sloppy with language, and accept my downvote honourably :-)

I was talking about what is sometimes called relativistic mass or effective mass (which are considered obsolete terminology), in order to address the GP (brabel)'s belief that photons having zero mass will have zero gravity.

> since the same sort of sources that teach you about these concepts are very emphatic about photons being massless

It depends how old you are; I learned these concepts in the 80s :-)

From https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/133380:

> There's no controversy about whether mass increases or not, there's controversy about what you call mass.

Something that may help readers:

From https://www.desy.de/user/projects/Physics/Relativity/SR/ligh...:

> Does light have mass? The short answer is "no", but it is a qualified "no"

> Part of this discussion is only concerned with semantics. It might be thought that it would be better to regard the mass of the photons to be their (nonzero) relativistic mass, as opposed to their (zero) invariant mass. We could then consistently talk about the light having mass independently of whether or not it is contained. If relativistic mass is used for all objects, then mass is conserved and the mass of an object is the sum of the masses of its parts. However, modern usage defines mass as the invariant mass of an object mainly because the invariant mass is more useful when doing any kind of calculation. In this case mass is not conserved and the mass of an object is not the sum of the masses of its parts. Thus, the mass of a box of light is more than the mass of the box and the sum of the masses of the photons (the latter being zero). Relativistic mass is equivalent to energy, which is why relativistic mass is not a commonly used term nowadays.

Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#74
post #2

Actually, it just got easier to beat. What happened was scientists found a new way to measure the effects of gravity that can substantially distinguish between different proposals to unify general relativity with quantum mechanics. The article says it got "harder" because the theory of general relativity wins every measurement, and that means the search space for potential solutions is much smaller - you have more co…

Thinking like an engine “taking relativity apart” and going over its pieces for flaws, finding a piece that’s broken, but needing such a highly customized piece to maintain consistency of the engine and maybe link it to quantum mechanics hasn’t really done away with the possibility we’ll chase thousands of dead ends first. It got easier but “easy” relative ;)

I don't disagree with your overarching observations, but it's not so much that there are "pieces" of General Relativity to examine, but rather that the most central two features of the theory produce -- inevitably -- several consequences, all of which seem to be supported by observational and experimental evidence. Adapting the central two features generically leads to a universe noticeably different from what we observe. Likewise, the universe we observe appears to demand General Relativity as a framework for describing it accurately.

Although there is some history about which empirical results were elevated into postulates of General Relativity, the history of the theory's discovery and development is pretty irrelevant to the two key features of General Relativity as a theory for our universe. They are: the Einstein tensor of curvature is constantly proportional to the stress-energy-momentum tensor of matter, and the universe's spacetime is a Lorentzian manifold with a vanishing torsion tensor. These two theoretical features produce dramatic consequences which are physically testable.

The two basic avenues of attack of General Relativity as a theory accurately describing our universe: undermine local Lorentz invariance (if it's wrong then we aren't in a torsion-free 4-dimensional pseudo-Riemannian space), or undermine the strong equivalence principle (specifically the universality of free-fall, which means that inertial mass and (passive) gravitational mass are always identical) which would blow apart the proportionality of curvature to matter.

The first line of attack tests the consequence that locally -- within a laboratory, say, whether that's on the ground, on the ISS, or on the moon -- physics which aren't dependent on gravitation are compatible with Special Relativity. Since the Standard Model of Particle Physics is governed by Special Relativity and is extremely sensitive to deviations from it, and is totally silent on the subject of gravitation, tests of the Standard Model of Particle Physics are also probes of this consequence, which is called local Lorentz invariance. Proof that results of Standard Model experiments differ during odd minutes from those obtained during even minutes, or that such experiments produce different results when the ISS is over the northern hemisphere rather than over the southern hemisphere, would call into question universal local Lorentz invariance. These tests happen often, and a lot of attentionis generated whenever a claim is made which violates local Lorentz invariance. Practically all such claims have been found to have been wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_searches_for_Lorentz_vi...

The second avenue is to look for cases where black holes or neutron stars travel on different orbits from ordinary stars, planets, asteroids, people, or flecks of paint falling off spacecraft. Observational evidence favours this part of General Relativity, which implies that the gravitational constant G is truly a universal constant (the same everywhere and at all times and in all systems of matter), and that there is no long range interaction that applies to all mass-energy including the Standard Model and whatever dark matter is. 8 pi G (where c is set to 1) is the constant of proportionality between the tensors mentioned above, and it's not General Relativity if that constant is not the same at all times and in all places. (This exact proportionality also protects the components of the Einstein curvature tensor: it's not General Relativity if you allow the Riemann scalar ("R") to vary, and there are plenty of alternatives which propose to vary R: these are f(R) gravity theories and most conflict pretty violently with what we observe in the universe (technically General Relativity is an f(R) gravity where f is the identity function).

These two postulates of General Relativity produce numerous consequences which are unavoidable, and so there is a wide range of tests of General Relativity that are implicitly tests of these two postulates. These consequences can be described parametrically in such a way that alternatives to General Relativity can have their consequences assessed: deviations from General Relativity in most of these parameters is strongly constrained by observation and experiment, and it is maddeningly difficult to produce an alternative to GR that survives this kind of theoretical analysis. It's easy to shoot down most f(R), f(G), or f(c) theories using a parameterized Taylor-like expansion, for example. It's a pity, because a number of such theories would significantly simplify the description of the hot dense phase of the universe about 13.8 billion years in our past.

Worse, so far nobody has found a parameter extracted from General Relativity which is contradicted by observational or experimental evidence, and most tests of such parameters are in accord with General Relativity to better than a fraction of a percent, and in many in some cases to much better than a part in a billion (we have some statistics from the Hulse-Taylor system that constrain to within one part in 10^20 some preferred-frame effects that touch on local Lorentz invariance and the universality of free fall).

The problem is that General Relativity itself is mathematically complete and the maths say that gravitational interactions are entirely dependent on the distribution of matter (in the most general sense), and there's lots of detail we don't know about how matter is distributed or how exactly a lot of it works, including in the Standard Model at extremely high energies and also at extremely low energies (e.g. justifying infrared cutoffs on soft photons). Modifying General Relativity as an approach to make extreme-energy particle physics simpler has tended to produce a lot of dead ends.

Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you quote doesn't deny "no compatability" of the author… (I didnt say it was THE unification theory of QM and GR, you somehow inferred that, why? i dont know) and irrelevant when the author points out where the overlaps lie (what I quoted last). I could add that quote and it would change nothing as far as I'm concerned what the authors stance is on "no compatability". Hell, even in the second quote even mentions…

> What you quote doesn't deny "no compatability" of the author What I quote shows that the author knows and acknowledges that he's describing a classical construct. The question of "compatability" (sic) is not even addressed. > I didnt say it was THE unification theory of QM and GR, you somehow inferred that I did not. Here's what I wrote: "This is not unification of QM and GR, it's a classical construction". Not the…

For some reason, you are trying to make it seem like I'm saying that the author is making a quantum theory (i have no idea why you think im saying this), I'm not.

> He's presenting a purely classical model which displays some features (in particular charge quantization) also seen in quantum mechanical ones.

Compared to other physicists who just outright state that there is no compatibility… You can ignore it, but it is an area for further study in regards to non time orientability for others.

Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#76
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you quote doesn't deny "no compatability" of the author What I quote shows that the author knows and acknowledges that he's describing a classical construct. The question of "compatability" (sic) is not even addressed. > I didnt say it was THE unification theory of QM and GR, you somehow inferred that I did not. Here's what I wrote: "This is not unification of QM and GR, it's a classical construction". Not the…

For some reason, you are trying to make it seem like I'm saying that the author is making a quantum theory (i have no idea why you think im saying this), I'm not. > He's presenting a purely classical model which displays some features (in particular charge quantization) also seen in quantum mechanical ones. Compared to other physicists who just outright state that there is no compatibility… You can ignore it, but it…

> For some reason, you are trying to make it seem like I'm saying that the author is making a quantum theory

No, I am pointing out that you do not understand the paper you misquoted as evidence that "Not all physicists think they [GR and QM] are incompatible".

The author would not have written a paper trying to take a small step toward a solution if he didn't think that there is a problem.

Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#77
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some reason, you are trying to make it seem like I'm saying that the author is making a quantum theory (i have no idea why you think im saying this), I'm not. > He's presenting a purely classical model which displays some features (in particular charge quantization) also seen in quantum mechanical ones. Compared to other physicists who just outright state that there is no compatibility… You can ignore it, but it…

> For some reason, you are trying to make it seem like I'm saying that the author is making a quantum theory No, I am pointing out that you do not understand the paper you misquoted as evidence that "Not all physicists think they [GR and QM] are incompatible". The author would not have written a paper trying to take a small step toward a solution if he didn't think that there is a problem.

The author acknowledges in the paper where the overlaps lie wrt to EM (coupled to GR) and QM using a classical model that treats particles as an asymptotically flat spacetime manifold with a region of non trivial topology where time is not orientable (but manifold subtracting out the worldtubes of said particles is both space and time oreintable).

Just because he does not say explicitly "[GR and QM] are compatible", does not mean opposite.

If you aren't interested in the that U(1) bundle described in the paper is from utilizing time oreintability from a classical standpoint and not formed from the complex phase of a quantum mechanical wave-function, that's on you.

Re: Einstein's description of gravity just got much harder to beat

#78
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For some reason, you are trying to make it seem like I'm saying that the author is making a quantum theory No, I am pointing out that you do not understand the paper you misquoted as evidence that "Not all physicists think they [GR and QM] are incompatible". The author would not have written a paper trying to take a small step toward a solution if he didn't think that there is a problem.

The author acknowledges in the paper where the overlaps lie wrt to EM (coupled to GR) and QM using a classical model that treats particles as an asymptotically flat spacetime manifold with a region of non trivial topology where time is not orientable (but manifold subtracting out the worldtubes of said particles is both space and time oreintable). Just because he does not say explicitly "[GR and QM] are compatible",…

> Just because he does not say explicitly "[GR and QM] are compatible", does not mean opposite.

It also doesn't mean what you are claiming.

To have a meaningful discussion about the incompatibility of GR with QM, you first need to know how they are incompatible. Reproducing classical electromagnetism with the Kaluza-Klein trick from 1919 [1] has nothing to do with it.

QM deals with unit vectors in a state space, operators acting on those vectors, and observables whose values can not all be known simultaneously [2]. The hole left by the observer's limited knowledge about the state of the system is filled by an intrinsic randomness which does not exist in classical theories.

GR and other classical theories have only observables, their evolution is deterministically determined and the state of the system can in principle be fully known at all times. We have known for a long time that nature does not actually work like this [3].

If you want to claim that GR is compatible with QM, you have to resolve the above contradiction.

What people who actually understand the problem have been trying to do for a long time is:

1) Quantize GR. This is the obvious first thing to try; you treat the problem as analogous to the quantization of classical electromagnetism and hope to create a quantum version of GR, the gravitational equivalent of QED. When you try that, it turns out you can't make the theory renormalizable - the infinities caused by loops in Feynman diagrams can not be brought under control. Trying to fix that leads to things like loop quantum gravity [4]. Weinberg came up with the alternative idea of asymptotic safety, which tries to neuter the problem with a fixed point in the renormalization group flow [5], but proving that it actually works is another story.

2) Come up with a deterministic (i.e. classical) theory underlying QM. Naive approaches involving hidden variables (i.e. trying to explain away our limited knowledge of quantum states as ignorance rather than truly fundamental) died with Bell's theorem. A few brave souls, notably t'Hooft [6] are still trying more sophisticated approaches (I think it would be nice if superdeterminism [7] got more attention).

3) Write down a more fundamental theory which produces both GR and the other known interactions in the appropriate limits (thermodynamic, large number of quanta). Since the other known interactions are empirically known to be quantum mechanical, it is generally believed that this theory will have to be quantum mechanical too. String theory is the obvious example. In principle, you could also imagine a classical (i.e. deterministic) theory along the lines of (2), but I can't think of any example which comes close to actually doing the job.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluza%E2%80%93Klein_theory

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics#Mathematical...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loop_quantum_gravity

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_safety_in_quantum_g...

[6] https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.1548

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism

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