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UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

auditor.ca.gov

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Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#71

Post by TimTheTinker »

CharlesMerriam2 wrote: post #34

Have a rule. Our republic, and the California state government, is based on rule of law. One group makes the laws, another enforces it, and a third interprets the conflicts. This works. What we have here is a 'no rules' set of actions. How about rules that say "we will take any student for $200K/year". This is enough money to supply extra supervision and also give a full scholarship to another student.

Completely agreed.

The idea that we have to "tear it all down" and institute Marxism is backward and self-contradictory.

As you said, we need to identify where and how rule of law is lacking and fix it, making sure that representative government and separation of powers remains intact (or is put in place again).

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#72

Post by ffggvv »

jasoneckert wrote: post #17

This should not be surprising, especially considering that popular culture has portrayed this practice overtly for decades. For example, how many movies or sitcoms have you heard a phrase a long the lines "My boy is going to ____ just like I did."

it’s a given at private schools but not public imo

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#73

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

jjeaff wrote: post #54
TrackerFF wrote: post #42

In this day and age, with all the fierce competition, it's a real problem that elite universities are admitting rich kids on such unfair and uneven grounds. Going to the "correct" school can transform the life of some people, essentially pulling them up from the lower working classes, and opening up the doors to middle, or even upper-middle classes. And what's even worse, a lot of these rich kids could go pretty much…

And just in case anyone thinks the idea that an elite school won't help a rich kid, there have been studies indicating that is the case. The one that comes to mind was the study that compared long term outcomes of students who were accepted to Harvard and attended to those who were accepted but did not attend. Average future incomes were not statistically different. But the study did note that the starkest improvents…

Do you have a cite for this? Not saying you're wrong as it's my prior that selection bias is the most important factor in any difference in educational outcomes. But I'd love to have something solid to point to.

I will say I don't totally understand how future income differences can be not statistically significant and also be "stark" between lower income students at the same time.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#74

Post by Loughla »

gibolt wrote: post #63
kenhwang wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 for 1 isn't worth it, and the UC system already plays that game with international students where one international pays for 3 in-states. Make the buy-in price pay for 10 and I'm in support.

1 for 10 seems reasonable, assuming there is also a strict academic requirement for that privileged student. Even more points if it supports their housing and food plan.

The incentive in that system is to ensure the wealthy student absolutely meets their academic requirements, regardless of ability.

How can you fail out Timmy Upperclass, if 10 students lose their funding next year with him gone?

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#75

Post by chaostheory »

ipnon wrote: post #46
CharlesMerriam2 wrote: post #34

Have a rule. Our republic, and the California state government, is based on rule of law. One group makes the laws, another enforces it, and a third interprets the conflicts. This works. What we have here is a 'no rules' set of actions. How about rules that say "we will take any student for $200K/year". This is enough money to supply extra supervision and also give a full scholarship to another student.

The idea of privilege first entered the public sphere in the prelude to the French Revolution. "Privilege" in Old French literally means "private law".[1] It was the idea that a different set of rules for each of the Estates (Clergy, Nobles, and Commoners) was both fair and natural. Are we are starting to see similarly different sets of rules for each class in the United States? Is such privilege in accordance with o…

Corruption never disappears completely, but it's pervasiveness seems to be cyclical. The 4th Turning is a good read on the subject

https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Turning-American-Prophecy-Rend...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generatio...

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#76

Post by ffggvv »

jedberg wrote: post #51
google234123 wrote: post #16

Meanwhile, the same California government is trying to legalize discriminatory race-based admissions.

re-leaglize. It was legal until the 90s. When it became illegal, the diversity on campus dropped significantly. There is an argument to be made that the race-based admissions help make up for prior injustices.

>> it was legal until the 90s

so it was legal until then but didn’t make a dent in inequality? but i’m sure it’ll work this time!

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#77

Post by whiddershins »

I get that this is offensive to everyone. I’m not saying that world should work this way.

But I’m not remotely surprised. Didn’t everyone in this thread, or basically everyone everywhere, kind of assume that donors get some sort of perks? Even if it is corrupt, isn’t it the most obvious and predictable corruption? Would donations drop without this corruption? Are the donations vital to the school’s budget? Should we do away with donations to Universities somehow?

These are all things that come to mind.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#78

Post by AcerbicZero »

jjeaff wrote: post #54
TrackerFF wrote: post #42

In this day and age, with all the fierce competition, it's a real problem that elite universities are admitting rich kids on such unfair and uneven grounds. Going to the "correct" school can transform the life of some people, essentially pulling them up from the lower working classes, and opening up the doors to middle, or even upper-middle classes. And what's even worse, a lot of these rich kids could go pretty much…

And just in case anyone thinks the idea that an elite school won't help a rich kid, there have been studies indicating that is the case. The one that comes to mind was the study that compared long term outcomes of students who were accepted to Harvard and attended to those who were accepted but did not attend. Average future incomes were not statistically different. But the study did note that the starkest improvents…

I'm not going to shit on a study I haven't read, but it seems likely that if you come from a "rich" family capable of buying you into a college via back channels, you've probably already got a pretty solid leg up in the game. I can't imagine correcting for all of those variables in a manner which isn't going to leave at least a few questions.

Either way, I'm sure having a diploma from Harvard would open some doors for pretty much anyone, and I'm not naïve enough to pretend otherwise, but I have serious doubts that a diploma from Harvard can truly tell you anything other than that person has the ability to make it through Harvards' admission filter, and do mindless homework for X number of years, like every other college.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#79

Post by joshuamorton »

CharlesMerriam2 wrote: post #34

Have a rule. Our republic, and the California state government, is based on rule of law. One group makes the laws, another enforces it, and a third interprets the conflicts. This works. What we have here is a 'no rules' set of actions. How about rules that say "we will take any student for $200K/year". This is enough money to supply extra supervision and also give a full scholarship to another student.

This isn't tenable at this price. Double or triple it, and maybe.

The limiting factor for elite universities usually isn't dollars, but the quantity of qualified tenure-track faculty and physical space. Not at the university, but overall. The number of postdocs and graduating PhD students each year with the credentials that Cal wants to accept isn't huge. Similarly, the number of rooms that the university has is limited, and both of those numbers take time to change.

A certain ticket for 4x the price of Harvard is still a really, really good deal for lots of wealthy people.

Re: UC Berkeley inappropriately admitted students as favors to donors

#80

Post by selimthegrim »

wegs wrote: post #28
adaisadais wrote: post #12

Upon close examination I think we would find the ALL schools do this. This is just a symptom of the underlying problem with our education system in the US. It’s no longer about educating but about $. When the almighty dolla gets in the way judgment is clouded. Come to think of it... maybe this happens in politics and medicine too? ;)

All schools do NOT do this. I went to MIT: * MIT wouldn't be caught dead with JUST 64 students admitted on the basis of connections and donations. * MIT wouldn't be caught dead letting external auditors look at this stuff. * MIT wouldn't be caught. None of this would be public for MIT. That's what NDAs and non-disparage agreements are for. I'm sorry, but all schools don't do this. Most are smart enough to stay out of…

I absolutely agree. Did you know if you have an NSF GRF as a grad student at MIT it costs a PI more to employ you than if you were on TA support? MIT takes more overhead and assumes the PI will just suck it up as he/she/they is "riding off MIT's brand" anyway. Numerous complaints to NSF run into the brick wall of " MIT"
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