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The Disinvitation

blog.cleancoder.com

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Re: The Disinvitation

#71

Post by rektide »

throwawaygh wrote: post #47
duskwuff wrote: post #9

So, let me get this straight. Conference asks Martin to give a presentation. No money is to change hands, no contract is signed. Conference changes their mind and decides to not have him speak after all. Martin's reaction is to throw around legal threats like "breech of contract" [sic] and "tortious interference"??? Sounds to me like the conference dodged a bullet.

I've never quite understood why Robert Martin carries so much currency in the software development world. That whole portion of industry group-think -- what to call it? consulting-revenue-oriented-dev-culture? you know, the agile/xp/enterprise software/oop-cum-fp-design-pattern "flavor of the month while pretending to be profound" thing -- had noble intentions but feels like a huge left turn in retrospect. Fortunatel…

Clean Code filled niche about programming in the large, & yes, overall we had a huge thought-leader driven worldview of computing & development.

Re: The Disinvitation

#72

Post by zarkov99 »

antjanus wrote: post #68
zarkov99 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what does exist? Oppression and power? And we should trust the people who believe that to fix the imbalances?

I'd like to invite you to come up with a strategy to counter meritocracy bias to make it "fair" for everyone. What would your strategy be?

Did you mean to reply to the parent?

Re: The Disinvitation

#73

Post by rektide »

jebronie wrote: post #25

cancel culture is awful

There is an authoritarianism to it. There's almost never any trial, never any jury. We have these codes of conduct but there's no justice system around them, no paths to renewal or forgiveness.

Perhaps a write up with what the charges are, to start, is due.

Then the person can reply, appeal or try to say that they are trying to learn & prove & apologize.

We have had to tolerate & had to endure humongous shitbirds on this poor planet for way too long. People should be fed up, up to our ears with terrible behavior, & seemingly nothing to put a damper on it, endlessly ever the malignant poisonous people grabbing attention & stroking their demented egos in public. We do need a way for civil society to begin to emerge defenses, to say, no, you are not a civic participant here. But I also think the current CoC system is remarkably cruel & unjust, almost everywhere, & cause of undue unnecessary harm & division & schizming. (But not with BM).

Re: The Disinvitation

#74

Post by zarkov99 »

dmit wrote: post #45
zarkov99 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was prevented from talking at a conference because other speakers found his political opinions insufficiently woke. That does not bother you?

If I invited a dozen guests to a party at my house and half of them objected to having #7 on the guest list because he's a shitbag, it would not bother me one bit to have him disinvited. If, on the other hand, I myself were disinvited in such a manner, my first thought would be to reassess my recent behavior rather than suing the house owner.

What if your party took place 80 years ago, in Berlin, and you invited a dozen guests, half of them were Nazi and objected to your invitation of the 7th for being a Jewish sympathizer? Would it bother you to disinvite him? And would you reassess your recent behavior if you were the one disinvited?

Re: The Disinvitation

#75

Post by antjanus »

zarkov99 wrote: post #72
antjanus wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to invite you to come up with a strategy to counter meritocracy bias to make it "fair" for everyone. What would your strategy be?

Did you mean to reply to the parent?

No? maybe I misunderstood your comment. Everyone seems to default to "if it's not meritocracy, then what?" or they default to "this meritocracy alternative you're proposing is worse". Well, then, what's better for you? What would you prefer knowing that meritocracy is inherently full of biases?

Meritocracy is full of flaws.

I do believe putting more diverse set of people into power makes a difference. Having racial diversity, gender diversity, cultural diversity, financial diversity etc. is important for having fair and fruitful leadership at companies, in gov't, and whatever other places.

Re: The Disinvitation

#76

Post by zarkov99 »

antjanus wrote: post #75
zarkov99 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you mean to reply to the parent?

No? maybe I misunderstood your comment. Everyone seems to default to "if it's not meritocracy, then what?" or they default to "this meritocracy alternative you're proposing is worse". Well, then, what's better for you? What would you prefer knowing that meritocracy is inherently full of biases? Meritocracy is full of flaws. I do believe putting more diverse set of people into power makes a difference. Having racial d…

No, I guess I misunderstood yours.There is nothing better than meritocracy, in my view, because meritocracy, which I believe is routinely used successfully in all sorts of domains, ensures the best people are incentivized to do the best work they can, for the benefit of the entire tribe..

Re: The Disinvitation

#77

Post by antjanus »

zarkov99 wrote: post #76
antjanus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? maybe I misunderstood your comment. Everyone seems to default to "if it's not meritocracy, then what?" or they default to "this meritocracy alternative you're proposing is worse". Well, then, what's better for you? What would you prefer knowing that meritocracy is inherently full of biases? Meritocracy is full of flaws. I do believe putting more diverse set of people into power makes a difference. Having racial d…

No, I guess I misunderstood yours.There is nothing better than meritocracy, in my view, because meritocracy, which I believe is routinely used successfully in all sorts of domains, ensures the best people are incentivized to do the best work they can, for the benefit of the entire tribe..

I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think it's been used successfully and by design, meritocracy isn't for the benefit of everyone -- it encourages actions only for the benefit of the power-wielders because they're the ones who judge merit.

Re: The Disinvitation

#78

Post by cmxch »

rektide wrote: post #73
jebronie wrote: post #25

cancel culture is awful

There is an authoritarianism to it. There's almost never any trial, never any jury. We have these codes of conduct but there's no justice system around them, no paths to renewal or forgiveness. Perhaps a write up with what the charges are, to start, is due. Then the person can reply, appeal or try to say that they are trying to learn & prove & apologize. We have had to tolerate & had to endure humongous shitbirds on…

Then create a separation between person and profession. That would limit the scope to the location of the offense.

Re: The Disinvitation

#79

Post by rick_men »

cholmon wrote: post #22

What opinions has Bob Martin expressed that are objectionable?

calling out the left in the US for promoting a cancel culture. And telling people not to remain silent or embarassed about having views other than the left.

Re: The Disinvitation

#80

Post by zachrose »

cholmon wrote: post #22

What opinions has Bob Martin expressed that are objectionable?

https://twitter.com/unclebobmartin/status/128266896430954496...

I object to using the notion of a "6X difference in murderer density" among Black men as a reason why police are justified in racial profiling.

But I also object to the extremely smug and faux-engineer-rationality of "This does not appear to be racism [...] It looks more like math."

If we're expecting Uncle Bob to be just some guy on Twitter I would write him off as a simple fool. If we're expecting Uncle Bob to be a thought leader in a consequential professional field requiring deep analysis and sound judgement, that's something else.

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