I've skimmed this and will dig further (it's certainly interesting stuff) but one alternative needs considering is that it's there to attract animals which somehow leave nitrogen by other means - perhaps droppings? Or that eave offal? or are killed by other carnivores? Something else?
A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
71–80 of 91 posts
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
>GMO is about transplanting genes, so any gene used has already "broken loose" before it is ever transplanted into any GMO crop you can however transplant genes across species, which just doesn't happen in nature. The fear that these improved crops would outcompete native grasses outside the farm wouldn't be unjustified if it weren't for Monsanto doing everything they can to prevent farmers from replanting their harv…
Gene transplantation across species does occur in nature (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfers ). Apparently our genome contains traces of viral DNA, and species of bacteria can swap genes using plasmids.
While that's correct, it doesn't alleviate any of the fears. Virus->Something transfer isn't relevant unless Anything->Virus transfer is also common (which doesn't appear to be the case?). Plant->Plant or Bacteria->Plant transfer are really the ones relevant to GMOs, and neither seem to be common. So we really can't say that genetic modification is just like what nature does, except for uncommon edge cases.
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#73Apparently it is not making nitrogen at all, but splitting aerial nitrogen and binding it into bigger molecules. Making nitrogen would be an impressive achievement for anybody, never mind a plant. Probably easiest is to make a lot of hydrocarbons with deuterium substituted for the regular hydrogen, and pack that around a source of free neutrons. The neutrons would lose energy to the deuteriums, and end up slow enough…
Did you originally think we had found a variant of corn that was able to fuse or fission atoms? Haha, that would be something!
The title says it does. If it doesn't, the title is a lie.
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Gene transplantation across species does occur in nature (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfers ). Apparently our genome contains traces of viral DNA, and species of bacteria can swap genes using plasmids.
While that's correct, it doesn't alleviate any of the fears. Virus->Something transfer isn't relevant unless Anything->Virus transfer is also common (which doesn't appear to be the case?). Plant->Plant or Bacteria->Plant transfer are really the ones relevant to GMOs, and neither seem to be common. So we really can't say that genetic modification is just like what nature does, except for uncommon edge cases.
I'm no expert here but from what I've read bacteria can be used as vectors in genetic engineering. I think this is an important point to mention since GMOs are sometimes seen as playing god, while I'm not sure if they are really so different from traditional selective breeding techniques. In the end, we should evaluate these techniques based on how safe they are, rather than thinking about "naturalness".
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#75This is an extremely hard problem. I've been following efforts to replace nitrogen for around forty years. It's part of a bigger trend of the seed industry grabbing a larger portion of the crop production dollar. It's the science of GMO's. We've replaced some insecticides by letting the plants produce their own. We've eliminated some herbicides (weed sprays) by producing resistance in the plant to first Roundup and l…
Insecticides and herbicides are famously trouble for stomach bacteria, among many other things.
And yet that's getting ignored here...
Making the plants produce them directly just makes the plants a lot less safe for human consumption.
(I've a bunch of related allergies and intolerances and am tired of the IBS and pain related)
I'm otherwise a fan of GMO.
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's true though. The opposition to GMO foods is typically reflexive and unthinking. It's not grounded in logic or science. That's not to say throw all caution to the wind, but I've yet to hear anyone make a sound argument in this case. And there are at least good arguments to be made on both sides referencing the existing literature.
You don't really have any idea where opposition to GMO foods originates. You guess that it is reflexive and unthinking because that is convenient for you to guess. There are strong arguments against, not necessarily GMO as a technology, but practically all existing commercial uses of it. Furthermore, each use of it is potentially an independent problem with its own dangers. Thus far the only beneficial use of it I ha…
I'm not guessing, I'm summarizing my personal experience with anti-GMO people. You're guessing about my experience and motives though.
Also there's a lot more to GMO foods than yellow rice, so it seems you're proving my point quite nicely.
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes ,@knaq is correct. Organic production systems _do_ spray chemicals and oftentimes those chemicals are clearly more dangerous than the chemical applied to modified crops. Its been mentioned in this thread but Roundup is actually safe compared a whole host of chemicals we were spraying in the <1970s. There is currently not a world where crop production doesn't use herbicides (but it is coming thanks to drones and a…
What I tell people that are railing against Roundup ready crops and other GM crops is this: say we decide to stop using these types of crops today--pick the millions of people that get to starve in the upcoming year. Just point to an Indian state or an African country and say 'those people get to starve' and we'll stop using GM crops.
That's just because we didn't drive the pests to extinction and we didn't make the massive long-term investment in greenhouses. Had we done either, all-natural crops would be able to feed the world.
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#78This is an extremely hard problem. I've been following efforts to replace nitrogen for around forty years. It's part of a bigger trend of the seed industry grabbing a larger portion of the crop production dollar. It's the science of GMO's. We've replaced some insecticides by letting the plants produce their own. We've eliminated some herbicides (weed sprays) by producing resistance in the plant to first Roundup and l…
> We've replaced some insecticides by letting the plants produce their own.
So, you traded insecticide application to it being pre-aplied into the plants. That isn't reducing the amount of them out there.
Yes, there are some gains, like in there being no environmental contamination due to the application. There are also some losses, like in there being long-term environmental application due to contaminated bio-matter.
> We've eliminated some herbicides (weed sprays) by producing resistance in the plant to first Roundup and later other herbicides.
No we didn't. We traded larger amounts of less effective herbicides into lower amounts of incredibly effective ones.
On both cases, there are plenty of details, gains and loses that could be weighted in a public argument and settled down into policy. But the fact is that Monsanto didn't want public arguments, so they got their goals written into laws by the dirtiest possible procedures (really, on my country the entire legislative process was completely illegal) and got the public argument shut down with claims of it being "anti-science" or similar things. Those are not markers of socially positive actors.
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
While that's correct, it doesn't alleviate any of the fears. Virus->Something transfer isn't relevant unless Anything->Virus transfer is also common (which doesn't appear to be the case?). Plant->Plant or Bacteria->Plant transfer are really the ones relevant to GMOs, and neither seem to be common. So we really can't say that genetic modification is just like what nature does, except for uncommon edge cases.
I'm no expert here but from what I've read bacteria can be used as vectors in genetic engineering. I think this is an important point to mention since GMOs are sometimes seen as playing god, while I'm not sure if they are really so different from traditional selective breeding techniques. In the end, we should evaluate these techniques based on how safe they are, rather than thinking about "naturalness".
Whilst this is recent enough knowledge to not be included in what most people here would have learned in high school, we have found many genes that have been transplanted laterally. We are technically not sure this was by viruses (perhaps it was by bacteria or even somehow directly).
Genes do spread without procreation. This is a certainty at this point.
Re: A variety of corn has evolved a way to make its own nitrogen (2018)
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't really have any idea where opposition to GMO foods originates. You guess that it is reflexive and unthinking because that is convenient for you to guess. There are strong arguments against, not necessarily GMO as a technology, but practically all existing commercial uses of it. Furthermore, each use of it is potentially an independent problem with its own dangers. Thus far the only beneficial use of it I ha…
I'm not guessing, I'm summarizing my personal experience with anti-GMO people. You're guessing about my experience and motives though. Also there's a lot more to GMO foods than yellow rice, so it seems you're proving my point quite nicely.
I am well aware that there are many other uses. That is the problem. Uses that are beneficial are the rare exception.