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Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

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Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#71
post #15

To me there's a sort of a Bayesian logic working against any hypothetical "adult novice puts in 10,000 hours of work and becomes a pro" story, which is that anyone who has the willpower and passion to put in that much work probably has already. If you are so excited about a sport/instrument/game/hobby that you're willing to put 10,000 hours into it starting from scratch, why weren't you working on it before? I recent…

What was the name of the music theory book? Seriously interested.

"A Geometry of Music: Harmony and Counterpoint in the Extended Common Practice" by Dmitri Tymoczko.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#72
post #43

I 'll probably be buried for this, but how is this "hacker news"? I thought HN was moderated

Do you not find it an intellectually curious topic?

Without trying to be condescending, no. I am not a golf fan, and I already know that practice makes perfect. If I were to devote 10000 hours of my life in something it would be more "cerebral" than a motor skill/sport. Just my point of view.

For example: if this guy decided to devote 10000 hours to make a machine that would connect and download golf into his brain, now that would be cool.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#73

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

I think you're missing a few key points:

1. It helps to get started out right with no bad habits to unlearn. For example, I started playing disc golf and I got on a forum and everyone said "Start with a putter and nothing else." Two years later I have what might be called a fairway driver(innova Gazelle) as my fastest disc in the bag. I can play against guys that are throwing discs 2x or even 3x faster than I am and I compete against them pretty well. My shots aren't as far, but they are better shaped and more accurate. I can also putt much better than them. If you start out how he did learning how to putt first and working backwards you will have a very solid game. Did you do this?

2 You need dedicated practice, not just any practice. The time you dick around with friends, try trick shots, go out and drink some beer don't count. Most people spend a large part of their 'practice' doing this. I was putting 1,000+ times a night to improve my putting game and that was deliberate, dedicated practice.

3.I would agree with you if you would have said, "This guy has no history of sticking with anything." The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. It's going to take a lot to change his behavior and stick with it. But the fact that he hasn't touched a golf club isn't going to hold him back.

I believe this guy is adding significantly to the sport of golf, human behavior research, and just doing awesome experiments. Congrats to him, and I wish him the best!

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#74
post #69

[deleted]

If you read the book "Talent is Overrated", the theory being put forth alongside "10,000 hours to master something" is there is no such thing as natural talent. Every baby has the same talents at birth.

Tiger Woods was not born great. His father had him swinging a golf club from before he could walk.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#75

I have been playing golf since I was 6 years old (I am now 25, running a YC company and whiteyboard). I've played competitively, going all over the country and even got a full scholarship to a NCAA Division 1 university for the sport. I can honestly say that this guy does not stand a chance, and here is why. 1. Golf, especially when it comes to playing professionally, is more of a mental sport than physical (both str…

But do you not think it possible that your perspective (as a golfer from a young age) is skewing the reality of your statement? I specifically state this because you talk in such absolutes. One's brain will typically dismiss a "n00b" trying to become good at something that one is good at without the experience that one has. I believe this is possible because if they do succeed it will invalidate ones own experience w…

Exactly - look at TV shows like MTV's 'Made' and similar, where people 'focus' (in the case of 'Made', not even very hard) and get to a respectable level, just by having a coach and putting in some time. There are other TV shows where people actually take 10 weeks or so to do something full time - things that the 'pros' say of that it's so hard to learn (like dancing, or hairdressing, or whatever). They usually compete with serious amateurs or pros at the end, and often cannot be picked out as the 'amateurs'.

People want to believe that what they do is so hard that it requires many years of practice, but in reality it's often just not true.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much moderated - some links are occasionally killed, usually as spam. How is setting out on a new venture to both succeed technically and profesionally - and test a hypothesis that has been bandied about HN quite a bit - not hacking related?

Just out of curiosity, would you find it equally interesting if it was about, say, soccer, or about memorizing the Bible?

Good question. The problem with soccer is that it is a team sport, so individual success is more difficult to gauge than with golf. It is also not very well-recognized in the US. Memorizing the Bible would be fascinating but it's not really in line with the whole 10K hour to become a pro at something, though I could see something like this making it to the front page of HN.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#78
post #14

I'm not fond of all these attention grabbing hotshots. Gladwell's theory is completely bogus. A guy in UK tried to do that for Marathon and aimed to become an olympian. He did a lot of media and called his upcoming documentary "The Road to Beijing". He didn't make it, and wasn't even close (from what I remember it was 2:40 or 2:45). Then he went to Ethiopia and picked a protege. His protege was fast but didn't win a…

The theory isn't about becoming the best in the world. It's about achieving "greatness" or "success." Most people can't even run a marathon, much less do so in under 3 hours. I don't see how you could call someone unsuccessful who can do so.

This kind of crazy promise sidelines real athletes working hard for many years. Many athletes working hard were in his shadow in the media. Media spots are very important for non-professional athletes as they depend on sponsorships and donations.

I find it very disrespectful.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#79
The thing about golf is that practicing six hours doesn't mean you got six hours of practice- you need to play rounds, which take several hours but are only really ~30 minutes of "golf practice" at most...golf is interesting because the athletic prerequisites are minimal compared to most other sports, but this doesn't mean that 10,000 hours is sufficient. I don't doubt that he'll be near-pro level after the 10,000 hours, but I do doubt that he will be good enough that it will be really worth the complete dedication of these six years. He'll be scratch+ for sure, but until you get close to that level, it isn't easy to predict who will have the ability to step up to the true professional level, and who will lose a ton of money traveling on minitours with little chance at ever reaching a PGA/Nationwide tour level (i.e. what most mean when they say "pro").

My perspective on this is based on my experience in playing tennis for 10,000+ hours (not apples-to-apples, obviously, but still relatively close) and becoming good enough to know that there would be absolutely no point in trying to play full-time professionally, because I was too slow to ever reach a level where I could make money while touring. There's a lot more money in golf, but it also is a lot more expensive (many golf mini-tours pay prize money out of the sizable entry fees they charge...$1k/tourney entry fee is common for small pro golf tourneys) and there's a lot more marginal pro-level players around for the golf tournaments since there aren't nearly as many physical factors in golf as there are in tennis.

Re: Can a complete novice become a golf pro with 10,000 hours of practice?

#80
post #47
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sports training usually shows diminishing returns. In particular, if you overtrain you plateau or get worse.

do you have a citation or any evidence for this?

Are you being funny or are you implying results can be linear?

Have you ever seen personal bests charts? Save specific cases of breaktrhoughs, it plots very logarithmic for everybody. That is diminishing returns, more or less.

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