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When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

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Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#71

Post by ikeboy »

ta1234567890 wrote: post #66
parsimo2010 wrote: post #7

These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…

> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. Some anecdotes: - A company I started, hired a big-brand SV legal firm, super expensive. We thought they would be great. But we were so little to them, it was sometimes even hard to get a timely response. In the end we stopped using them, but not before we signed a bunch of documents they reviewed and told us were fine to sig…

There's a big difference between a lawyer who will take a case and a lawyer who can handle a case.

I agree 100%. One thing I do is look for similar cases and contact the lawyer on the winning side.

The "formulas" do save you money, though. Would you rather pay 5k for them to use an existing template slightly edited, or 25k to write a complaint from scratch? It depends on the case, there is no right answer.

You can also literally just look up a lawyer's cases on PACER and see how they write, see if they've won, and use your judgement as to whether they're an effective advocate. If you're dealing with a big case, this is absolutely worth doing.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#72

Post by ovi256 »

ta1234567890 wrote: post #66
parsimo2010 wrote: post #7

These are interesting scenarios, but let's not forget that the rules are only binding under the threat of being caught and punished. They aren't like the laws of physics. So if a lawyer isn't supposed to engage in trickery, they might do so anyway, especially if they think they can get away with it and their client happens to be a rich criminal who pays them extra to do shady stuff. Source: Lawyers wouldn't have the…

> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. Some anecdotes: - A company I started, hired a big-brand SV legal firm, super expensive. We thought they would be great. But we were so little to them, it was sometimes even hard to get a timely response. In the end we stopped using them, but not before we signed a bunch of documents they reviewed and told us were fine to sig…

re "Had a complaint filed against me personally earlier this year." - unfortunately, the fact that the plaintiff's lawyer painted that picture is what's expected, and required of him. He advocates for his client, in the best way possible. Painting the most favourable picture for his client goes with that.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#73

Post by elgenie »

flowerlad wrote: post #8

How is a court-appointed defense attorney supposed to do his job if he knows his client is guilty?

This would be a problem if his job were to prove that his client is innocent. But it is.

Instead, the job is to argue that the prosecutor is not able to prove that guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and to advocate for his client's best interest, which possibly even includes the client admitting guilt in exchange for a lesser sentence.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#74

Post by ikeboy »

dependenttypes wrote: post #69
ta1234567890 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. Some anecdotes: - A company I started, hired a big-brand SV legal firm, super expensive. We thought they would be great. But we were so little to them, it was sometimes even hard to get a timely response. In the end we stopped using them, but not before we signed a bunch of documents they reviewed and told us were fine to sig…

I do not want to dismiss what you are saying (in fact I find it extremely interesting) but don't 80%+ of people in all professions (or even out in society) just suck? I am more surprised that you consider 50% to be the minimum of bad lawyers rather than a higher percentage.

80% of doctors don't suck.

It's not that lawyers suck, per se. It's that you're dealing with an adversary, and if you get a 50th percentile lawyer to go against a 90th percentile lawyer, well, you could still win if you've got a good case, but it's certainly not as likely as the reverse. In many cases you get what you pay for.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#77

Post by jacquesm »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #49
nordsieck wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. While it's true that some lawyers are unethical some of the time, it seems highly unlikely that lawyers are unethical as often as their reputation suggests. A much more likely explanation is: 1. The complexity of the law. 2. The incongruity between the law and many people's ethical codes. 3. The skill gradient that exists amo…

And that a lawyer's job isn't even to ensure that the law is enforced. A defense attorney's job is to get the defendant the least punishment possible, regardless of what the defendant actually did and the legality of such action. The prosecution's job is to seek the the most punishment possible. In a criminal case, a fair outcome hinges on the two lawyers being roughly equally skilled and resourced, but if this isn't…

This view of prosecution and defense is geographically limited.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#78

Post by jacquesm »

gamblor956 wrote: post #38
woofie11 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever tried filing a misconduct compliant with a bar association? You'll get just about as far as a police violence compliant with the local PD. The bar is there to serve the lawyers, like any guild or union. For the most part, there are no checks on lawyer ethics.

I've actually served on the ethics committee for the bar association. We discipline lawyers all the time. The bar does not exist to serve lawyers, it exists to regulate them.

It exists to avoid the courts stepping in to regulate them. If it weren't for the bar association keeping the worst out of view there would be a lot more lawyers reprimanded by judges instead. This is probably efficient, but not a sign that the bar association serves individual lawyers. It serves them collectively by keeping the dirty laundry within the organization rather than to submit to outside regulation.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#79

Post by kwanbix »

ovi256 wrote: post #72
ta1234567890 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. Some anecdotes: - A company I started, hired a big-brand SV legal firm, super expensive. We thought they would be great. But we were so little to them, it was sometimes even hard to get a timely response. In the end we stopped using them, but not before we signed a bunch of documents they reviewed and told us were fine to sig…

re "Had a complaint filed against me personally earlier this year." - unfortunately, the fact that the plaintiff's lawyer painted that picture is what's expected, and required of him. He advocates for his client, in the best way possible. Painting the most favourable picture for his client goes with that.

twisting the truth shouldn't be expected.

Re: When is it okay for a lawyer to lie? (2018)

#80

Post by dodobirdlord »

ovi256 wrote: post #72
ta1234567890 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lawyers wouldn't have the reputation they do if all the members of the club had integrity. Some anecdotes: - A company I started, hired a big-brand SV legal firm, super expensive. We thought they would be great. But we were so little to them, it was sometimes even hard to get a timely response. In the end we stopped using them, but not before we signed a bunch of documents they reviewed and told us were fine to sig…

re "Had a complaint filed against me personally earlier this year." - unfortunately, the fact that the plaintiff's lawyer painted that picture is what's expected, and required of him. He advocates for his client, in the best way possible. Painting the most favourable picture for his client goes with that.

Yes, but in a reasonable world "lies and omissions" ought to result in disbarment.
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