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Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

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Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#71
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This could be said of all required vaccines, though, and the same counter-arguments apply: One individual's freedom to not vaccine hurts other people's right to health (e.g. via reduced herd immunity which hurts people who cannot get vaccinated) and should thus take a backseat. The whole point of rights is that they're non-conditional. That's why most western countries currently don't do any forced vaccinations (alt…

This is absurd bordering on trolling. That isn't the "whole point of rights" (maybe this is what you believe, but that's an opinion, don't present it as a fact). At best, a right is a societal norm. They're almost always conditional and complex - if for no other reason than, without conditions, some rights cannot co-exist. A strong commitment to human rights doesn't mean rights are non-conditional, so you're moving t…

>This is absurd bordering on trolling. That isn't the "whole point of rights" (maybe this is what you believe, but that's an opinion, don't present it as a fact).

From the first line of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/):

"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world"

Note the word "inalienable".

Or if you don't like the UN, there's the US declaration of independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

The whole point of countries having a supreme court and constitution is to enforce the unconditionality of such rights.

Yes it's a political position held by some nowadays that human rights are just a legal fiction granted by the government or "society", but that's not how the nation's founders saw it.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#72

The narrative about COVID is starting to fall apart and these cynical people want to make as much money as they can before it falls apart completely. CDC admits only 6% of reported COVID-19 deaths were actually caused by COVID.[0] [0]: https://t.co/W7Sxq4Pmos?amp=1

You probably know this, but that’s not what that table means.

> Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#73

I'm so sick of politics... I know it's a byproduct of democracy, but this behavior becoming widespread - or at least more noticeable/transparent/obvious. Even in a crises where scientist should be the shot callers, and regulators should be on their best game... no... They became tools of politicians. It's not only in the US. It's not just another "Trump thing". It's a worldwide phenomena. Every matter goes through th…

And now you understand that everything is politics . There is no avoiding it. The moment you begin to make any form of decision that affects more than yourself, you are engaging in a political act. Ignoring this fact and doing things without political discussion is what we call authoritarianism.

> Ignoring this fact and doing things without political discussion is what we call authoritarianism.

This is a broad statement and makes me think of how readily people talk about "fascism" and "neo-nazis" nowadays with little regard to whether the people they're describing bear any relation to Mussolini or Hitler.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#74

As highlight by many scientists, a badly working vaccine is much worse than no vaccine at all. There are two serious risks, the vaccine can have serious side affects for certain genetic population groups, or the vaccine doesn't provide the protection it claims it does. Both will be taken advantage of by anti vaxers.

Bah, even if the vaccine was 100% safe and 100% effective antivaxers would claim that it's a death shot that does nothing for your immunity.

But yes, we should definitely be as sure as possible that the vaccine is reasonably safe and effective before getting into large scale vaccination campaigns.

Not because of the antivaxers though. Because it would be incredibly irresponsible not to do so and it could hurt many people.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to an untested vaccine? You truly belive you can ensure the safety of a vaccine without multiple years of trials?

> Compared to an untested vaccine? I didn't say anything about comparisons. I was pointing out that you were engaging in hyperbole.

You did: COVID vs vaccine IS a comparison.

Since in the end it's RISK of covid vs RISK of vaccine.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#76
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies, but could you clarify "non-consensual" for non native English speakers? Does this mean "no consent given for the medication" or "medication that is not part of an agreed consensus"? If the former, then there are literally tons of occurrences of this everywhere.

It means the former. What are some examples of medication being given without consent in developed countries?

Well the most obvious instance that comes to my mind are suicidal persons. I don't think it is legal for someone to say "I am suicidal, I do not want to be treated if I try to harm myself".

I am also not sure of the implications that it entails. If I find someone injured on the street, and he tells me he does not want help, would it then be against the law for me to discard his instructions and help him?

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#77
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Compared to an untested vaccine? I didn't say anything about comparisons. I was pointing out that you were engaging in hyperbole.

You did: COVID vs vaccine IS a comparison. Since in the end it's RISK of covid vs RISK of vaccine.

I'm really struggling to follow your logic when I didn't mention vaccines at all. You said "...children and adults are NOT at risk for COVID." and I am claiming that this statement is obviously false.

If you'd said something more nuanced I wouldn't be having this conversation.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point of rights is that they're non-conditional. I agree with the broad point about the importance of the right to consent/ refuse treatment. But, surely, there can be places where individuals' rights conflict and society's tie-breaking creates conditions on the rights. Freedom of religion as long as your religion isn't to sacrifice unwilling virgins. Freedom of speech as long as what you want to say isn'…

That's why rights can be broken down into two kinds: positive rights (which entail an obligation on somebody else's part to do something) and negative rights (which only entail an obligation on somebody else's part not to do something to you): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights . The nice thing about negative rights is they generally don't conflict, and freedom from unwanted medical treatment…

If I understand the distinction correctly, my freedom of religion example is a conflict between two negative rights (the prohibition on preventing a religious practitioner's worship versus the prohibition on taking the unwilling virgin's life).

Extended to unwanted medical treatment... imagine Joe CRISPR'ed himself a gene that improved his eyesight, but also caused him to emit bromine gas that kills 90% of people who come within 100 feet of him. To date, Joe has killed thousands of people with his gas cloud. Society might rightly deem that he was infringing on their right to life and that that negative right was more important than Joe's negative right not to be forced into the reversing medical procedure.

Somewhere on the spectrum between "bromine gas cloud" and "germs for the sniffles", there's probably a condition Joe could have for which Joe's right to avoid unwanted medial treatment and society's right to not be needlessly kiled are really evenly balanced. Maybe it's ebola. Maybe it's covid... or measels, or the seasonal flu.

The right not to be forced into medical treatments is important and should be talked about, but to cast it as a right and therefore unconditioned and inviolate is to dodge the important societal debate.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#79
post #62

If we discover any issue with this vaccine in the future, this will be a total disaster, not only because of possible complications that vaccinated people may develop in the long term but more importantly because of the anti-vax and the fear of any vaccine people will have for the next pandemic.

I worry more that the people who are politically or economically invested in the vaccine's success will hide facts and/or lie about it's effectiveness. It is a common thing to worry about, however I feel there is a much greater chance of happening now, with certain leadership and their addled fans.

Re: Alarm as FDA willing to issue Covid-19 vaccine before stringent safety testing

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now you understand that everything is politics . There is no avoiding it. The moment you begin to make any form of decision that affects more than yourself, you are engaging in a political act. Ignoring this fact and doing things without political discussion is what we call authoritarianism.

> Ignoring this fact and doing things without political discussion is what we call authoritarianism. This is a broad statement and makes me think of how readily people talk about "fascism" and "neo-nazis" nowadays with little regard to whether the people they're describing bear any relation to Mussolini or Hitler.

>This is a broad statement and makes me think of how readily people talk about "fascism" and "neo-nazis" nowadays with little regard to whether the people they're describing bear any relation to Mussolini or Hitler.

Those were totalitarian states. Authoritarian is general term which can be used to describe any entity engaging in autocratic decision making.

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