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Game Design Curriculum

riotgames.com

71–80 of 127 posts

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#71

(Riot's less than stellar history aside) I see these takes on game design a lot, and they're interesting to see because everyone takes their own stance on how to construct a fun game from distinct smaller concepts. Yahtzee’s Dev Diary [0] talks a lot about loops (And I give it a watch recommendation), while at your average GDC talk you hear about the concept of pillars [1] and their role in shaping games. I'm interes…

I've not played duskers (2). But from watching the video, sounds like he was super lucky. A happy accident, rather than an utter disaster. One of those definite cases of survivorship bias.

I was privy to some of the development process of Duskers, and I would say that Tim worked pretty hard to create opportunities for happy accidents to befall him. There were several other prototypes that he was working on at the same time, but only Duskers crossed the finish line. This is not uncommon among game developers I've known; generally they're bursting with ideas and have many in-progress experiments in various stages at any time. It's a little like an incubator, where there's a diversity of ideas in order to have a better chance of having one be a hit.

There is survivorship bias, but it's kinda all happening within the one designer.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#72
post #66

Game design (whether computer or even board games) is a valuable topic to learn even if you never make a real game. If you make any kind of thing that people use, learning a little about how to think like a game designer can help you make things that are more rewarding and pleasant to use. One way to think of videogames is that they are useless software . Imagine a word processor that couldn't save or print files. Or…

It's going to be grating for any gamedev to hear games described as "useless", as if players' enjoyment was somehow not valuable. But I think you're basically making the argument that games are art. That they exist for the aesthetic experience, and for no utilitarian purpose. And I'm very much okay with that. :)

I would argue that there's a big class of games that have an educational purpose. E.g. Minecraft, TIS-100, and many more. Even an arbitrary game that's not in your native language is helpful, I learned English mostly from gaming.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#73
post #65

Disclaimer: I am a DotA fan/nerd and am a huge fan of its design vs LoL's. I applaud Riot for this, but I think they're specialty and reason for their huge growth is more to do with outreach, as jimbob45 noted. For a company with such a focus on competitive PvP games, I would argue they are not very good at balance at all. I would even go so far to say that their monetization scheme is detrimental to the balance of t…

I agree with you, but I also wonder if balance is somewhat of an anti-pattern. By changing the balance of the game, they're influencing the meta builds and play styles, which keeps things interesting. So in a way, creating imbalances is a feature to keep the game fresh. All of this within reason of course.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#74
The “8 kinds of fun” have been a huge help to me as a D&D DM. It’s a great framework for running adventures that players will respond to and give everyone a chance to find their fun.

It also helps answer micro, nuts and bolts like what kinds of rewards your players will respond to. For example, a player really into challenge might only care about the stats on a magic sword they find, but a player more into narrative or exploration will dig a sword with a mysterious engraving on the hilt even if it isn’t necessarily an upgrade. Real life people usually respond to multiple categories, but if you pay attention during the game you will see this at work.

I got onto this via a post at theangrygm.com, who I really recommend. He’s super opinionated, and the “angry GM” schtick gets old, but he knows what he’s talking about.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#75

Game design (whether computer or even board games) is a valuable topic to learn even if you never make a real game. If you make any kind of thing that people use, learning a little about how to think like a game designer can help you make things that are more rewarding and pleasant to use. One way to think of videogames is that they are useless software . Imagine a word processor that couldn't save or print files. Or…

>useless

Well, they are not exactly useless. Even discounting for educational games, pointless games like Borderlands / Grand Theft Auto have great value. That value lies in providing entertainment in an interactive way, something that was never possible for most of human existence.

There is something magical about highly interactive games, like say Far Cry. GTA, etc, where the player knows his game, while being the same product, is unique to him/her. Services like Twitch have created whole new ecosystems of micro-economies, where a section of population is replacing movies with watching others playing games. There is great fun in watching an expert gamer playing a game. Part of the experience is in unexpected humor through mistakes, wrong decisions, distractions, etc. Part of the experience is in knowing that none of it is scripted and everything is happening in real time.

As an evolution of the entertainment industry, it's not useless.

There are many negative aspects of gaming as well. If played in excess, at the cost of childhood related activities, like playing with friends outside, etc, it can be detrimental to social development.

But those sorts of problems are there in many areas of life. Anything done in excess is detrimental.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#76
post #65

Disclaimer: I am a DotA fan/nerd and am a huge fan of its design vs LoL's. I applaud Riot for this, but I think they're specialty and reason for their huge growth is more to do with outreach, as jimbob45 noted. For a company with such a focus on competitive PvP games, I would argue they are not very good at balance at all. I would even go so far to say that their monetization scheme is detrimental to the balance of t…

I agree with you, but I also wonder if balance is somewhat of an anti-pattern. By changing the balance of the game, they're influencing the meta builds and play styles, which keeps things interesting. So in a way, creating imbalances is a feature to keep the game fresh. All of this within reason of course.

I would agree with you IF you take traditional view of 'balance' in the way that LoL and other simpler games do. I would call that ideal a 'symmetric' balance, where they want each element in its category to be compared to all other elements in the same category. LoL definitely strives for this, as do many other games. Each champion is balanced against other champions of the same role. Items are relatively inflexible and augment the already present abilities of the champion. Each champion is essentially a complete package and each uses items to enhance what they already have. But when you have such rigid categories, power creep and best-in-slot champions will naturally appear, as whatever is best able to maximize their item's stats will be meta. My first competitive game was LoL back in its beta, and I was hooked, but what opened my eyes to what balance could be was DotA's approach.

DotA takes a systemic approach to balance. Each hero is a tool in the team's toolbox. Most heroes have very specific strengths and weaknesses, and their powerspikes are very pronounced. When you draft a team, you are specifically drafting a set of capabilities that you want to exploit against the enemy. This also leads to heroes having very hard counters. But I think the real beauty in DotA is it's item system, which allows you to patch holes in your team's composition and allow a huge amount of flexibility for each hero. I can keep going forever, as I really love its game design. But the most important thing that DotA does in terms of balance is its holistic approach that allows heroes to be individual components to a team, and have items to augment strengths or patch holes that the draft was not prepared for. (DotA's design and metagame sparked my interest in Complex Adaptive Systems, so I just nerd out about it any chance I get).

So to your point, I think the whole need to create imbalance is caused because of the way Riot balances their characters in the first place. I think it is fundamentally flawed from a design perspective, but it obviously makes them a ton of money. They really mastered monetization of multiplayer games. They also made their game very approachable for noobs, and that I have to commend them for.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#77

Game design (whether computer or even board games) is a valuable topic to learn even if you never make a real game. If you make any kind of thing that people use, learning a little about how to think like a game designer can help you make things that are more rewarding and pleasant to use. One way to think of videogames is that they are useless software . Imagine a word processor that couldn't save or print files. Or…

>useless Well, they are not exactly useless. Even discounting for educational games, pointless games like Borderlands / Grand Theft Auto have great value. That value lies in providing entertainment in an interactive way, something that was never possible for most of human existence. There is something magical about highly interactive games, like say Far Cry. GTA, etc, where the player knows his game, while being the…

You missed the point. He said games do not generate anything materially useful. His intend here was to trivialize the true value of games and still giving them the honor of being worthwhile. Read between the lines or just don't at all.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take serious issue with the description of games as useless. They don’t do anything in the same way as reading a book doesn’t do anything. Or playing chess doesn’t do anything. You absolutely get something tangible in return. Whether it’s a new perspective, new friends or utter humiliation. The idea we should capture the way games build tangible experiences and apply them to “useful software” is to misunderstand bo…

> I take serious issue with the description of games as useless. I figured some might. Try to charitably understand why I chose to emphasize with that word. Yes, obviously, playing games provides all sorts of meaningful things to the player. As I said, playing games is intrinsically rewarding. But what most games don't do is provide extrinsic utility . Playing a videogame does not pay your mortgage, fix your leaky si…

> But what most games don't do is provide extrinsic utility. Playing a videogame does not pay your mortgage, fix your leaky sink, cure your halitosis, or get you an A in class. (Ignoring professional game playing for money, of course.)

Games can help you practice interpersonal communication skills, teamwork and coordination, problem solving, and fine motor skills. These may very well help you with your work or leaky sink in the future. Games can also help inure you to failure, and provide some perhaps necessary escapeism to improve your mental health (perhaps more important to work on than your halitosis!). Or help provide that social connection that turns into a job offer.

Playing cow clicker all day - sure, that's probably not all that extrinsicly useful. But you're painting with an overly large brush IMO. And there's perhaps a reason you'll have a damn difficult time finding anyone playing cow clicker all day ;).

> Your electricity company's website can be a slow, bug-ridden heap of PHP 1.0 garbage and you will still use it because it lets you pay their bill and keep your lights on.

Or I might pay by mail or phone instead. Or use my bank's auto-pay setup. It's less a matter of utility, and more a matter of competition.

Games have a huge entertainment industry they're competing with - lots of choice. It wasn't always this competitive - people enjoyed playing Pong on the Atari back in the day. There's plenty of "extrinsicly useful" software I avoid - yes, even when I'm earning $$$ to pay that mortgage - in favor of better alternatives. Your electricity company's website probably has few alternatives, but even then there might be some.

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#79

Game design (whether computer or even board games) is a valuable topic to learn even if you never make a real game. If you make any kind of thing that people use, learning a little about how to think like a game designer can help you make things that are more rewarding and pleasant to use. One way to think of videogames is that they are useless software . Imagine a word processor that couldn't save or print files. Or…

[deleted]

Re: Game Design Curriculum

#80
post #65

Disclaimer: I am a DotA fan/nerd and am a huge fan of its design vs LoL's. I applaud Riot for this, but I think they're specialty and reason for their huge growth is more to do with outreach, as jimbob45 noted. For a company with such a focus on competitive PvP games, I would argue they are not very good at balance at all. I would even go so far to say that their monetization scheme is detrimental to the balance of t…

agree on mobas (I was one of the devs on dotabuff for a year and think LoL ... has many opportunities for improvement) but ... try Valorant, it's imho much, much more interesting than cs:go or overwatch. It's a brilliant game.
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