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Rust 1.46

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Re: Rust 1.46

#71

Post by int_19h »

ragnese wrote: post #15
sfvisser wrote: post #6

I’m learning rust right now and there is a lot to like. Steady updates like this are also very motivating. The ecosystem feels very sane - especially compared to npm. Top notch Wasm support, cross compiling is a breeze. That said, coming from a FP background (mostly Haskell/JS, now TS) Rust is... hard. I do understand the basic rules of the borrow checker, I do conceptually understand lifetimes, but actually using th…

> Anyways, I guess this gets easier over time, right? Yes. > Should I avoid using closures all over the place? Not necessarily. > Should my code look more like C and less like Haskell? Yes. Others sometimes don't like to hear this, but IMO, Rust is not at all functional. Passing functions around is not ergonomic (how many function types does Rust have again? Three?). Even making heavy use of Traits, especially generi…

I think that Rust is often assumed to be functional because it has ADTs and nice pattern matching, both of which have historically been a feature specific to FP. Just goes to show how fuzzy our definition of FP really is...

Re: Rust 1.46

#72

Post by gchamonlive »

kumarvvr wrote: post #19

So, I want to learn Rust. I am a C# / Python programmer, experienced. Are there any particular set of problems that I can solve systematically, so that I can learn all the features of Rust?

I like to implement something I have already done before. In my case, the ID3 algorithm has a nice balance of challenge, experience and documentation available. You could try to write it for a specific case, where you structure your data, and then apply it to a generic case.

Re: Rust 1.46

#73

Post by hu3 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #52
hu3 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's baffling to me is how scott's comment is [flagged] and [dead]. You trully can't have unconfortable opinions about Rust here. That's blatant censorship. Replying to you since I don't see a reply button to his comment.

It's a factually incorrect comment: the entire Rust team was not fired from Mozilla. Does that mean it deserves to be flagged? I didn't flag it. But to be clear, while it does have some opinions, it is also plain incorrect in the facts it asserts. You can also find, many, many, many comments critical of Rust that are upvoted, let alone not flagged. I wouldn’t extrapolate from a single comment.

This is a discussion forum. Users will exaggerate and get facts wrong. Some ammount of lenience is expected before completely silencing their voice.

With that said, where can one read about who is in Mozilla's Rust team? Is that information even public?

Re: Rust 1.46

#74

Post by steveklabnik »

hu3 wrote: post #73
steveklabnik wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a factually incorrect comment: the entire Rust team was not fired from Mozilla. Does that mean it deserves to be flagged? I didn't flag it. But to be clear, while it does have some opinions, it is also plain incorrect in the facts it asserts. You can also find, many, many, many comments critical of Rust that are upvoted, let alone not flagged. I wouldn’t extrapolate from a single comment.

This is a discussion forum. Users will exaggerate and get facts wrong. Some ammount of lenience is expected before completely silencing their voice. With that said, where can one read about who is in Mozilla's Rust team? Is that information even public?

Sure. As I said, I did not flag it.

> Is that information even public?

It is in a really weird space. However, a lot of the folks involved have chosen to talk about where they're at publicly, and Niko said he was not laid off.

Also, for what it's worth: there's a charitable and uncharitable reading of the comment.

Charitable reading: everyone who was at Mozilla who was paid to work on Rust was laid off.

Non-charitable reading: everyone who was paid to work on Rust was at Mozilla, and was laid off.

HN readers are supposed to follow the principle of charity, but it's quite possible that people either ignored that, or mis-understood the parent as saying the latter, in which case, it feels quite egregiously incorrect, rather than maybe slightly wrong.

Re: Rust 1.46

#75

Post by datanecdote »

kumarvvr wrote: post #19

So, I want to learn Rust. I am a C# / Python programmer, experienced. Are there any particular set of problems that I can solve systematically, so that I can learn all the features of Rust?

I am in similar boat. Python centric data scientist. Very tempted to try to learn Rust so I can accelerate certain ETL tasks.

Question for Rust experts: On what ETL tasks would you expect Rust to outperform Numpy, Numba, and Cython? What are the characteristics of a workload that sees order-of-magnitude speed ups from switching to Rust?

Re: Rust 1.46

#76

Post by est31 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #51
pitterpatter wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting history note: Rust used to have an effects system which included actually being able to annotate a function as pure.

From way back in 2013, a HN thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6940624 Sadly it looks like the wayback machine does not have a copy of the original. Does anyone know how to get one?

Alright this sent me down a rabbit hole.

The URL is: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/3674/focu...

I've also seen it without the trailing /focus.

The web interface of gmane.org is down, so the link is not available. Turns out though that the rust-dev mailing list archive is present on both mail.mozilla.org and mail-archive.com, so one only has to find the mail corresponding to the link.

https://www.mail-archive.com/rust-dev@mozilla.org/

https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/

Using archive.org's "find all archived websites with this prefix" feature one can obtain a total of three archived e-mails.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://article.gmane.org/gmane....

http://web.archive.org/web/20140723013539/http://article.gma...

http://web.archive.org/web/20140719142224/http://article.gma...

http://web.archive.org/web/20141225073140/http://article.gma...

Now, one searches for lines in those e-mails in on mail-archive.com and finds these corresponding links:

https://www.mail-archive.com/rust-dev@mozilla.org/msg06831.h...

https://www.mail-archive.com/rust-dev@mozilla.org/msg09516.h...

https://www.mail-archive.com/rust-dev@mozilla.org/msg10494.h...

Observe that the differences between the two IDs are different each time, namely decreasing: 53, 50, 45

So it's not a constant difference. What to do now?

Let's google the URL! It points towards this hn comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7554676

It gives one piece of information: the e-mail was written by Graydon. Similarly, commenters in https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1t8y6g/why_rus... mention his name, making it very likely that the e-mail was written by him.

Another hint comes from the reddit thread you linked above: someone named maxcan stated they started the thread. Looking up their name plus "pure" gives only e-mails from a single thread, including an e-mail from Graydon: https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=rust-dev%40mozilla.org...

This is the E-Mail:

https://www.mail-archive.com/rust-dev@mozilla.org/msg03913.h...

https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-April/00392...

Also archived it, just to be sure:

http://web.archive.org/web/20200827181214/https://www.mail-a...

It covers precisely the topic you mentioned and is in a thread started by maxcan. I think it's the e-mail we are looking for.

To verify, the difference between the two IDs is either 239, or 58, depending on which of the two numbers in the URL point to the actual E-Mail, but 58 is more likely. The 0.7 release announcement for example has a difference of 57 and is quite close to both:

https://www.mail-archive.com/rust-dev@mozilla.org/msg04653.h...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5986985

Re: Rust 1.46

#77

Post by steveklabnik »

est31 wrote: post #76
steveklabnik wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From way back in 2013, a HN thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6940624 Sadly it looks like the wayback machine does not have a copy of the original. Does anyone know how to get one?

Alright this sent me down a rabbit hole. The URL is: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.rust.devel/3674/focu... I've also seen it without the trailing /focus. The web interface of gmane.org is down, so the link is not available. Turns out though that the rust-dev mailing list archive is present on both mail.mozilla.org and mail-archive.com, so one only has to find the mail corresponding to the link. https://www.…

Argh! you are a better sleuth than me. I was looking at that month's rust-dev archives and didn't realize the subject did not have "pure" in it, so I looked right over it.

This is! Thank you so much!

Re: Rust 1.46

#78

Post by hu3 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #74
hu3 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a discussion forum. Users will exaggerate and get facts wrong. Some ammount of lenience is expected before completely silencing their voice. With that said, where can one read about who is in Mozilla's Rust team? Is that information even public?

Sure. As I said, I did not flag it. > Is that information even public? It is in a really weird space. However, a lot of the folks involved have chosen to talk about where they're at publicly, and Niko said he was not laid off. Also, for what it's worth: there's a charitable and uncharitable reading of the comment. Charitable reading: everyone who was at Mozilla who was paid to work on Rust was laid off. Non-charitabl…

Thanks for keeping our conversation civil despite my tone.

Re: Rust 1.46

#79

Post by kibwen »

steveklabnik wrote: post #51
pitterpatter wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting history note: Rust used to have an effects system which included actually being able to annotate a function as pure.

From way back in 2013, a HN thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6940624 Sadly it looks like the wayback machine does not have a copy of the original. Does anyone know how to get one?

Gmane was just a nice interface for reading mailing lists, in this case it was just referring to some thread on the old rust-dev mailing list, which is archived at https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/ . Sadly I can't tell exactly which thread it was, but I'm guessing it was https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-January/002... .

(Niko also once wrote a blog post which gives an overview of the old purity system: https://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2012/10/12/ext... )

Re: Rust 1.46

#80

Post by ragnese »

int_19h wrote: post #71
ragnese wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyways, I guess this gets easier over time, right? Yes. > Should I avoid using closures all over the place? Not necessarily. > Should my code look more like C and less like Haskell? Yes. Others sometimes don't like to hear this, but IMO, Rust is not at all functional. Passing functions around is not ergonomic (how many function types does Rust have again? Three?). Even making heavy use of Traits, especially generi…

I think that Rust is often assumed to be functional because it has ADTs and nice pattern matching, both of which have historically been a feature specific to FP. Just goes to show how fuzzy our definition of FP really is...

Agreed. Same with "OOP". Who the hell knows what people really mean when they say that.

Those people who think that "FP" means "type system like Haskell" are wrong, though, IMO. It precludes languages that are much more function-based, such as Clojure, Schemes, Elixir.

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