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Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

bbc.com

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Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#71

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

throw_this_one wrote: post #38
gostsamo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever thought that maybe there was a reason for those rules to be imposed? It is really easy to put on the kindergarten act and to say that if the other side did it first, then it is okay. However, what is the difference between you and the other side then? The state has rather enormous power as it is and it is quite able to use it without letting the power trips of random individuals.

If you understand these programs they have... they do a meta-analysis of huge amounts of data. So while they use your data, there isn’t somebody personally looking at your data. Whereas China/Russia has people tracking dissidents etc. Not even in the same realm. Im saying give a more nuanced legal approach so we can defend ourselves.

> Whereas China/Russia has people tracking dissidents etc.

If you think the USA doesn't track dissidents you've been walking around with your eyes and ears shut.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#72

Post by alehul »

oh_sigh wrote: post #20
gostsamo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it is not their job. If a citizen is accused in a crime, there are other institutions tasked with the investigation. Sometimes this is the counterintelligence, sometimes this is the police. However, breaking the law and actively avoiding legal supervision is a crime which makes them criminals.

I'd imagine intelligence would be about crimes yet to take place, ie people planning a terrorist attack (is that a crime in itself?)

The community here is understandably very anti-surveillance, but you're right about the purpose of intelligence.

When we talk about intelligence and counter-terrorism, it's more about preventing terrorist attacks than reacting to them.

The UK is more open with statistics than the US — their most senior counter-terrorism officer claims that they foiled 22 terrorist attacks from March 2017 to September 2019 [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/09/foiled-terro...

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#73

Post by contingencies »

tgv wrote: post #68
contingencies wrote: post #22

Let's start a global program for shifting intelligence funding to schools. Education is a better defense than mass surveillance.

Number of people working for intelligence services in my country: around 2000. Number of people working in education: 342100. It won't make a dent.

What are the budgets?

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#74

Post by mc32 »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #71
throw_this_one wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you understand these programs they have... they do a meta-analysis of huge amounts of data. So while they use your data, there isn’t somebody personally looking at your data. Whereas China/Russia has people tracking dissidents etc. Not even in the same realm. Im saying give a more nuanced legal approach so we can defend ourselves.

> Whereas China/Russia has people tracking dissidents etc. If you think the USA doesn't track dissidents you've been walking around with your eyes and ears shut.

It depends on who is doing the tracking and who the dissidents are. I think most will agree it’s in the interest of the country to track “dissidents” who are bent on inciting “race” wars and so on. Violent anarchists probably also get in that list. Basically any seriously credible threat to the state and its citizens.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#75

Post by nabla9 »

gostsamo wrote: post #54
nabla9 wrote: post #21

Intelligence agencies in Nordic countries are really small, just few hundreds people per agency and limited budgets. Even if they go rouge, what they can do is limited. Number of people in the field is even smaller. This creates problems of it's own because their counterparts quickly learn to recognize their faces. For comparison, FBI Counterintelligence Division alone has 1-2 people per 10,000 Americans. Add differe…

The US is invading, bombing or financing a civil war in a random country every few years, while Denmark are at the corner of the map. Are you going to compare the threat models of the two?

Thereat model to their own citizens, yes.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#76

Post by coliveira »

throw_this_one wrote: post #25
gostsamo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it is not their job. If a citizen is accused in a crime, there are other institutions tasked with the investigation. Sometimes this is the counterintelligence, sometimes this is the police. However, breaking the law and actively avoiding legal supervision is a crime which makes them criminals.

Ok so we have to play by the rules to the absolute T. But our adversaries like China/Russia can play dirty and anyway they want, because you say justice is absolute and black and white. Great.

If these rules are not followed, then what is the difference between us, Russia, and others? The amount of propaganda coming from Washington?

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#77

Post by sandworm101 »

nabla9 wrote: post #21

Intelligence agencies in Nordic countries are really small, just few hundreds people per agency and limited budgets. Even if they go rouge, what they can do is limited. Number of people in the field is even smaller. This creates problems of it's own because their counterparts quickly learn to recognize their faces. For comparison, FBI Counterintelligence Division alone has 1-2 people per 10,000 Americans. Add differe…

>>Even if they go rouge, what they can do is limited.

I expect you meant "go rogue" but "go rouge", as in red/communist/russian, also works in the context.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#78

Post by coliveira »

Rumperuu wrote: post #6
motohagiography wrote: post #4

When I read about western intelligence agencies, one can't help but look at the last decade or so and ask, what was it they said their job was again, specifically?

I was surprised to find reading a book called Intelligence in an Insecure World [0] that the general consensus amongst intelligence studies scholars is apparently that there's no empirical evidence for the effectiveness of intelligence work and there probably never will be (although I read the book some time ago so I might be misremembering it). [0] https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Intelligence+in+An+Insecure+Worl...

That makes sense, because barred the possibility of putting all the population in jail, there will always be people with the ability to do harm to others that cannot be stopped by so-called intelligence. 99% of what they do is to infringe on personal freedoms and lobbying the government for more money.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#79

Post by ashtonkem »

oh_sigh wrote: post #12
hansjorg wrote: post #9

> According to local media, the Defence Intelligence Service is accused of failing to investigate allegations of espionage in the armed services. It has also been accused of obtaining and passing on information about Danish citizens. The secret intelligence services in your country are not working for you or your safety, and this is not a secret. If you believe so you have not been following the news the last thirty…

I think it would be possible for intelligence services to obtain and pass on information about a citizen while still trying to work for the overall safety of the country.

There’s a fair argument to be made here, but I think you’re missing the parent’s point. It’s not that it’s impossible for someone to obtain and pass on information while working for the overall safety of the nation, but rather they’re arguing that secret intelligence agencies inherently do not serve the overall safety of their own countries.

Re: Head of Danish intelligence suspended after whistleblowers hand over information

#80

Post by booboolayla »

throw_this_one wrote: post #28
contingencies wrote: post #22

Let's start a global program for shifting intelligence funding to schools. Education is a better defense than mass surveillance.

Yeah I’m sure when the West abdicates intelligence funding and increases education, the anti-west axis forming/formed will come in by the campfire and sing kumbaya with you.

Comments like the one you're replying to always make me think - is a popular democracy truly the way to go? If that truly is the case, then our education needs to become the polar opposite of what it is today, because today it is obviously churning out angry ignoramuses willing to criticize their own country into oblivion, as well as happily vote to undermine their own country's security.
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