Live data from Hacker News

US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

theguardian.com

71–80 of 86 posts

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#71

Shame that this got flagged. From the site Guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon..." I'd say that rampant voter suppression in the United States is a an interesting new phenomenon.

Voter suppression would be when people are actually kept from going to polling stations to cast their votes. Limiting mail-in voting is not voting suppression, it is limiting access to a specific - and rather contentious - way to cast your vote. These are not the same things, at all.

Your first sentence is essentially what gerrymandering is. Sadly, Republicans have spent decades doing this and closing down polling places in non-GOP friendly districts [1][2][3][4].

Here are some recent facts I tied together based on the current state and Trump's actions. Trump doesn't want mail-in voting because he knows that it will result in more democrats voting and him likely losing the election. Every decision he's made about the USPS has been with that concept in mind. He even said in an interview on Fox news last month that if mail in voting is allowed you'll never see another Republican in office again. He knows it. Everyone in politics knows it. The right will never admit they know this, and will look for any and every excuse to hold back the USPS without directly saying that its because they don't want more democrats than republicans voting.

With mail-in voting being accepted in a majority of states, and even set as the primary method for a few with COVID present, it really screws things up for the GOP. Couple that with Trump's gamble that convincing his voters the virus is no big deal will get them to the polls, while the scaredy cat democrats will stay home. So he spent a very long time building up this giant "virus hoax" to calm his masses. He is simultaneously trying to train them to believe that mail-in voting is fraud, even though he, himself does so, as have many, many of his voters, historically.

It worked. But what he didn't account for was states creating blanket acceptances of mail-in voting applications. That instantly turns the tables, because not only does it undo the removal of polling places, but it also allows the democrats (and the GOP, if they so choose) to vote from the safety and comfort of their homes while avoiding lines, saving time, and not risking COVID. His supporters, however, will be going to polling places in full force, in what will likely be a very bad time for the country as COVID starts to rear its face again between flu-season and school openings (especially in red states that are in denial and have entirely in-person classes).

So then, what happens, is a ton of his voters are going to be against voting by mail, and most will have not applied to do so, forcing them to go to the ballots, in what will most likely be a time that the pandemic is gaining speed. His advisors basically laid out the future for him of his silly comments, and where they were leading. So, in recent weeks, you've seen him compliment "absentee voting", trying to making it a completely separate thing from "mail-in voting", as not to look like an incompetent liar to his voters. But he knows his advantage still lies at the polling places, so he is simultaneously trying to hinder the USPS from delivering ballots. The number of mail-in voting applications for democrats FAR surpasses those for republicans, so while it may cost him a few votes, he is betting that it will cost democrats so many that his supporters who do show up will be able to tip the scales. He is also taking the approach of preparing to call the election invalid due to the amount of mail-in voting, should he lose.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-locations/so...

[2] https://civilrights.org/democracy-diverted/

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/02/texas-pollin...

[4] https://www.governing.com/topics/politics/sl-polling-place-c...

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone can stand in line for the cashier at Home Depot and Whole Foods, they can also do so at the voting booth. Mail-in voting has no tracking of the voter receiving the ballot and if a filled out ballot is counted. It also has no verification of who votes and no protection to make the vote anonymous.

Yeah, none of that is true. There was a recent article about how it works in Colorado: https://www.denverpost.com/2020/08/16/colorado-denver-mail-v...

I am talking about the "last-mile" problem of securing that the mail carrier getting the ballot into the voters hands and securing that the ballot gets from the mail box to the counting location.

At a physical voting location you know 100% a person gets a ballot and you track the ballot from it's put into the voting box.

As far as I can tell this process deals with neither of these problems.

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Republicans are ok with there being no mail-in voting. At least 50% of the population does not trust the large-scale move to mail-in-voting, so considering that people can stand in line at Home Depot and Whole Foods the loss of election trust does not seem worth it.

Your argument does not take into account the systematic closing of voting locations. Not everyone can vote in person if there's only a single voting location.

I agree that all voting locations should be open, and I see now reason to close voting locations because of Covid when Home Depot and Whole Foods can be open. I actually don't see why we can't utilize government resources to open more voting locations to facilitate social distancing.

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#74

It's interesting to see that in America, some government services can run at a loss but others are expected to be solvent. No one complains that the military doesn't pay back the 700 billion a year it takes but if public transportation goes over budget or the post office, suddenly it's a big deal. I honestly don't get it. Most services in most countries run at a loss but they provide huge public benefits so it's wort…

The military is paid by taxes. In general, no single citizen has much control over how much it costs. The USPS is different because if we eliminated stamps and paid it all out of taxes, individuals would abuse the system. Because we pay out of pocket for postage, we expect the USPS to place no further burden on taxpayers. However, it keeps going going into debt. This signals that there is something wrong at an operat…

Nothing about that dictates it must be an operational level issue. No other carrier has government mandated delivery schedules to remote areas or laws requiring them to prefund pensions for 75 years. Of course no other carrier has tax breaks and government funding. It doesn't mean it's an operating issue though but maybe it is. The point being "government service isn't making money" assumes the goal for that service is purely to make money, which is not the sole purpose of the USPS.

It also does not follow that because stamps cost money we therefore expect the USPS to need no other funding. It's possible for something to be partially subsidized.

This isn't an argument about what should be done with the USPS one way or the other it's an argument against trying to shove everything into "because it's not A it shows it is therefore B" type arguments which don't consider there could be more to the story than A and B.

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military is paid by taxes. In general, no single citizen has much control over how much it costs. The USPS is different because if we eliminated stamps and paid it all out of taxes, individuals would abuse the system. Because we pay out of pocket for postage, we expect the USPS to place no further burden on taxpayers. However, it keeps going going into debt. This signals that there is something wrong at an operat…

Nothing about that dictates it must be an operational level issue. No other carrier has government mandated delivery schedules to remote areas or laws requiring them to prefund pensions for 75 years. Of course no other carrier has tax breaks and government funding. It doesn't mean it's an operating issue though but maybe it is. The point being "government service isn't making money" assumes the goal for that service…

Prefunding medical pensions is not the reason for their cash flow problem:

> In addition, with respect to financial reporting, here are the key figures for 2019:

> Healthcare benefits paid out of the Benefit Fund: $3.7 billion.

> Normal costs scheduled to be paid into the Benefit Fund to cover current year’s current employees’ retiree healthcare cost accruals: $3.775 billion.

> Amortization payments scheduled to be made into the fund: $789 million.

> Overall net loss for the year: $8.8 billion.

> The math just doesn’t work to blame retiree healthcare contributions for the USPS’s losses. The amount they are recording on their P&L for retiree healthcare costs (which, again, they aren’t paying out in cash) — $4.564 billion — is only moderately more ($800 - $900 million, depending on rounding) than the amount that they would be paying out directly for pay-as-you-go benefits had the PAEA never been implemented. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ebauer/2020/04/14/post-office-p...

And I actually do see this as a "because it's not A it shows it is therefore B" type argument. When the USPS runs at a deficit, tax payers ultimately are the ones that have to bail it out. That goes against the principal necessitating stamps in the first place: individuals who don't place extra cost to the USPS end up paying more than their share and subsidize individuals who do cost the USPS extra.

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, that is absolutely not the definition of voter suppression— it is much broader voter disenfranchisement, from voter ID in neighborhoods with low ID ownership, to this example, which is giving people who do not want to risk their lives to vote the option to vote remotely in a manner that is proven as secure.

From what I gather - correct me if I'm wrong - voter ID is not a thing which is limited to 'neighbourhoods with low ID ownership' but a state-mandated policy where 36 of 50 states require some form of voter ID [1]. There seem to be possibilities to vote without an ID, the procedure varies from state to state and the eligibility may hinge on the voter presenting ID at a later moment. Also, people who do not want to ri…

> 36 of 50 states require some form of voter ID [1]

The key thing here is not that any voter ID law is necessarily voter-suppression. Some may argue that any ID law is, but most people would evaluate these on a case-by-case basis. For example, in many of those states, you can still vote without the appropriate ID. Some of these laws include alternatives like simply having a person working at the polling place vouch that you are who you say you are. We could argue the merits of such a law, but it's fairly clear that it's still possible to vote in many places without ID.

On the other hand, some laws have been found by the courts to be disenfranchising. Therefore, we should take the skeptical position and assume that new Voter ID laws would disenfranchise legitimate voters, and force the state to provide evidence that such a law's benefits outweighs the rights of the people it injures.

> The risk[ing] their lives part should be clear, there is no reason for a visit to a polling station to be more risk-filled than a visit to the supermarket

This seems ignorant of how polling places work in some neighborhoods. I've never seen lines like this outside of a grocery store. Many polling places will have people waiting for hours to vote, and these issues tend to effect predominantly black neighborhoods... for reasons. https://www.texasobserver.org/lines-wait-vote-texas-primary-...

> Those who really can not vote in person can still request absentee ballots as far as I can tell, it is not as if the USPS is being dismantled.

Yes, but the USPS has said that they will likely not be able to deliver those ballots in time for the election. This combined with having less in-person voting places. When you place your vote, and that vote isn't counted... then you've been disenfranchised. So what will happen to those people who waited in those long lines to vote in the past? Will they go wait for hours with dozens of other people? or will they vote by mail and risk the USPS not delivering it?

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voter suppression would be when people are actually kept from going to polling stations to cast their votes. Limiting mail-in voting is not voting suppression, it is limiting access to a specific - and rather contentious - way to cast your vote. These are not the same things, at all.

Your first sentence is essentially what gerrymandering is. Sadly, Republicans have spent decades doing this and closing down polling places in non-GOP friendly districts [1][2][3][4]. Here are some recent facts I tied together based on the current state and Trump's actions. Trump doesn't want mail-in voting because he knows that it will result in more democrats voting and him likely losing the election. Every decisio…

It is sad to see how party politics get in the way of solving problems in the USA. Your whole reply is worded from the standpoint of someone who is clearly against the GOP and - given the practical reality of the de-facto two-party system in the USA - most likely planning to vote for the DNC candidate. From that standpoint you come to the conclusion that the GOP is planning to use the reliability problems with mail-in voting to contend the election results in case their candidate were to loose the election.

Then there are those who do not support the DNC - which is not the same as stating they support the GOP - who claim that it is actually the DNC which intends to contend the results in case their candidate looses on base of mail-in voting being thwarted. Add to that the fact that the USPS workers union has voiced its explicit support for the DNC candidate [1] and the story gets even more muddled.

Meanwhile Fauci has stated he sees no problems in people going to polling stations [2] which should give rise to doubts about the reasoning behind the urgency of mail-in voting.

I am not an American and as such consider myself to be an interested bystander in this drama. What I can state with certainty is that this type of manoeuvring is extremely unlikely to happen in my country of birth (the Netherlands) but is in some ways comparable to the situation in the country where I currently live (Sweden). The Swedish voting system has come under criticism from the OSCE [3] partly due to irregularities in the way ballot forms are being distributed - forms for specific parties have a tendency to 'get lost' in the mail or otherwise end up missing at the ballot stations, often to be found in garbage containers or dumped in some ditch somewhere. There are other criticisms but this one comes the closes to the current conundrum with mail-in voting in the USA. Sweden accepted OSCE inspectors to watch the election procedures, it remains to be seen what the country will do with their recommendations. It would be enlightening to have an external, non-partisan organisation do the same with the coming elections in the USA. Which organisation that would be I do not know, it will be hard if not impossible to find an American organisation which is truly neutral towards all parties and probably even harder to find a foreign one which is neutral towards the USA as a whole.

[1] https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/512128-union-represent...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackbrewster/2020/08/07/fauci-w...

[3] https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/6/2/403760.pdf

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense in isolation except that it’s illegal and leads to delays in delivering or attempting to deliver, say, first class mail.

If they already have stuff waiting for days to be delivered, I don’t understand the insistence on delivering stuff that arrived in the afternoon. Either way they’re out of compliance with the law.

Are they? How is "detains" and "delays" defined? It doesn't seem like requiring delivery of late-arriving mail on the same day is the intent of that law.

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#79

Shame that this got flagged. From the site Guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon..." I'd say that rampant voter suppression in the United States is a an interesting new phenomenon.

No doubt your president wants to limit it, but you have to understand most of the people in the west would see postal voting without proper documentation and system that is verifiable is insanity and borderline corruption.

For some historical context, IDs cost money in most states and there's no national identification system. So if you implement voting ids, all it does is end up being voter suppression because generally the poor cannot afford to get a driver's license or cannot afford to drive therefore don't have a license. State Ids have a similar issue.

Historically, voter ID laws have been associated with disenfranchisement.

Re: US post office carriers "forced to work fewer hours," leaving "buckets of mail"

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument does not take into account the systematic closing of voting locations. Not everyone can vote in person if there's only a single voting location.

I agree that all voting locations should be open, and I see now reason to close voting locations because of Covid when Home Depot and Whole Foods can be open. I actually don't see why we can't utilize government resources to open more voting locations to facilitate social distancing.

I don't see why we can't utilize the USPS resources to mail in a ballot. I just did it for the local elections being held tomorrow and I was able to track my ballot online. Easy and Simple.
Post reply on HN