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More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

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Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#71

Post by justincormack »

ilogik wrote: post #43
dijit wrote: post #40

And yet, when I beg my google cloud rep for IPv6 addresses on instances (or on anything that isn’t the load balancer) I get told that it is not on the immediate roadmap. The cloud providers have pushed back ipv6 adoption so hard imo. At least native ipv6 access. I know they’ve thrown in some token support and you /can/ make something work; but compared to VPS providers which consistently deliver machines with IPv6 ad…

all of google's internal architecture was built with only IPv4. Take a look at kubernetes, which is based on google's Borg. It's only now, slowly getting IPv6 support

I don't think thats true, I think internally Google uses ipv6, see for example https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/lisa11/tech/full_papers... about end users, but I believe the data centers are also ipv6 internally.

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#72

Post by jiggawatts »

jasonvorhe wrote: post #44
dijit wrote: post #40

And yet, when I beg my google cloud rep for IPv6 addresses on instances (or on anything that isn’t the load balancer) I get told that it is not on the immediate roadmap. The cloud providers have pushed back ipv6 adoption so hard imo. At least native ipv6 access. I know they’ve thrown in some token support and you /can/ make something work; but compared to VPS providers which consistently deliver machines with IPv6 ad…

GCP will support IPv6 in 2021.

Imagine someone saying, in 2001 that they're adding IPv4 support.

Laughable, right?

IPv6 was available in Windows 2000. Just saying.

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#73

Post by q3k »

bzb3 wrote: post #57
q3k wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very happy to be told why I shouldn't do this though. Because your IPv4 traffic goes (or will, in the future, as IPv4 depletes further) through a slow, overprovisioned CGNAT - making IPv4 much slower then IPv6.

That's scaremongering and simply false. Cgnat servers are not necessarily congested. I've been to several isps with cgnat and none of them suffered from congestion. On a more personal note, if ipv6 were so great, their fans wouldn't have to make up things to badmouth ipv4.

> I've been to several isps with cgnat and none of them suffered from congestion.

And I've been on several residential ISPs where IPv4 was unusable during peak netflix hours, likely because people were blindly disabling IPv6 on their devices.

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#74

Post by iknowstuff »

walton_simons wrote: post #48

My ISP supports IPv6, and while I can understand why a large organisation would want to use it (especially given the increasing cost and scarcity of IPv4 blocks), I'm still yet to be persuaded of its benefits for home users. I admit that I only have a very cursory understanding of how it works, and perhaps I'm just stuck in my ways, but the scale and complexity seems so extreme compared to IPv4, with no compensating…

What complexity? Devices being autoconfigurable without DHCP is less complex. Having no NAT is less complex. Having a public IP is less complex. You just got used to the complexity of IPv4.

Why the hell would you block IPv6. You ARE stuck in your ways. OS vendors consider it necessary on LAN for various functionality.

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#75

Post by jiggawatts »

dijit wrote: post #40

And yet, when I beg my google cloud rep for IPv6 addresses on instances (or on anything that isn’t the load balancer) I get told that it is not on the immediate roadmap. The cloud providers have pushed back ipv6 adoption so hard imo. At least native ipv6 access. I know they’ve thrown in some token support and you /can/ make something work; but compared to VPS providers which consistently deliver machines with IPv6 ad…

Azure's IPv6 "support" saddens me. It's just painful how minimal their support is.

For one, they NAT all IPv6 traffic.

Let that sink in. Let it percolate. Mull over the fact that the entire purpose of IPv6 is to eliminate NAT, and that it's practically impossible to get an IPv6 NAT-ing network device.

Microsoft must have had to write their own, custom network load balancers to NAT IPv6. It's madness.

Oh, if that's not bad enough, they also hand out ludicrously small /124 ranges of just 16 addresses. Sixteen! Not sixteen trillion or some crazy huge number like that, which is what I've got on my home internet. Sixteen. Six and ten.

But no worries, right? Just allocate more blocks! Bzzt... that would run up against the subscription IP limits with just 100 addresses.

Okay, fine, just because my lab environment needed more than a couple of addresses doesn't mean that everybody is so wasteful with the precious IPv6 address pool. Some people can constrain themselves to just a handful of addresses, and don't have a problem with any of the above.

Except that when Azure finally adds proper, native IPv6 support, whatever work their early adopter customers have done will have to be thrown out and redone. Subnets. DNS addresses. Load balancer rules. NAT rules. Security Groups. Everything will have to be revisited.

So why would you bother?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/virtual-network/ipv6-...

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#76

Post by treysis »

jl6 wrote: post #66
wtallis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just 4G. It's consumer networking in general, which isn't held back by legacy enterprise networking equipment. When your residential ISP turns on IPv6 for their network, they also tend to turn on IPv6 for the modem+router combo devices they lease to run your LAN. Or if you're the kind of power user that buys your own router, it's almost certainly new enough to support IPv6.

Does IPv6 on an internal network offer any benefit to enterprises (not talking about ISPs here), who may view NAT as a form of defence in depth?

Yes. It offers better scalability! E.g. at my university, our institute has its own IPv4 /24. That means a maximum of ~253 or so devices. We have exhausted that number and for every new client, an old one has to go. Now with a /64 this would be no problem at all. To mitigate this the IT department is currently using VLAN-tagging for some of the devices. But it gets convoluted. And the more convoluted it gets, the higher is the chance for misconfiguration, errors, and security issues. Yet, they don't want to make the switch to IPv6 already.

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#78

Post by Yeri »

ilogik wrote: post #43
dijit wrote: post #40

And yet, when I beg my google cloud rep for IPv6 addresses on instances (or on anything that isn’t the load balancer) I get told that it is not on the immediate roadmap. The cloud providers have pushed back ipv6 adoption so hard imo. At least native ipv6 access. I know they’ve thrown in some token support and you /can/ make something work; but compared to VPS providers which consistently deliver machines with IPv6 ad…

all of google's internal architecture was built with only IPv4. Take a look at kubernetes, which is based on google's Borg. It's only now, slowly getting IPv6 support

Google definitely uses IPv6 internally (ie office WiFi is now using IPv6 only (with the router doing translations to IPv4 if the site doesn’t support IPv6) and afaik most of the servers in the datacenter/clusters are IPv6 only now as they ran out of IPv4 LAN IPs for their clusters.

I just think that there’s little demand on cloud (and tons of other high prior work)

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#79

Post by treysis »

_-___________-_ wrote: post #65
jasonvorhe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IPv6 doesn't have NAT, it has different addresses for global and local scopes, but your OS never translates between these addresses and it doesn't need to keep a table of translations & connections, as you'd have with IPv4 and NAT.

> IPv6 doesn't have NAT This is widely believed, but it's false. There is nothing whatsoever stopping you doing NAT with IPv6, even though you probably don't need to.

Some use it because it simplifies load balancing if you're thinking network-design in an IPv4-way.

Re: More than 1/3 of all access to Google is now over IPv6

#80

Post by grahamedgecombe »

jiggawatts wrote: post #75
dijit wrote: post #40

And yet, when I beg my google cloud rep for IPv6 addresses on instances (or on anything that isn’t the load balancer) I get told that it is not on the immediate roadmap. The cloud providers have pushed back ipv6 adoption so hard imo. At least native ipv6 access. I know they’ve thrown in some token support and you /can/ make something work; but compared to VPS providers which consistently deliver machines with IPv6 ad…

Azure's IPv6 "support" saddens me. It's just painful how minimal their support is. For one, they NAT all IPv6 traffic. Let that sink in. Let it percolate. Mull over the fact that the entire purpose of IPv6 is to eliminate NAT, and that it's practically impossible to get an IPv6 NAT-ing network device. Microsoft must have had to write their own, custom network load balancers to NAT IPv6. It's madness . Oh, if that's n…

We've been experimenting with Azure's IPv6 support at work recently. The fact it uses NAT is insane - though we could tolerate that. Even worse is that the NAT is broken - it doesn't update the ICMPv6 checksum when it rewrites the source/destination address, so the machines on both ends drop all ICMPv6 traffic that passes through Azure.

This is rather bad considering the importance of ICMPv6 in IPv6 (for Path MTU Discovery, for example).

Their support is being rather useless, despite us having to pay for the privilege of reporting a bug in their own infrastructure to them!

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