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Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

journals.plos.org

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Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#71
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget martial arts. I've had good experiences from teaching Wing Chun to students who practiced dancing and/or (somewhat surprisingly in this context) Yoga before. What dancing and martial arts have in common more than the rest of your list is creativity and two minds working together.

Absolutely agree. Before everything shut down I used to practice yoga at a school here in Brooklyn that was very physically demanding and attracted a lot of more advanced practitioners. Most of the advanced students had long histories with dance or martial arts (or both). All of these arts teach increased awareness both physically and mentally, challenges your proprioception, and surprises the body with creative move…

I'm far from objective, having practiced and taught Wing Chun for more than 25 years; but from the martial arts I've been in contact with, WC excels at teaching physical and emotional awareness.

Cuts both ways, I've been looking for oppurtunities to teach but people are so nervous and spinning now that it's mostly impossible to reach through.

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#72
post #69

I've been a dancer for 30 years, of many forms. The best way I can describe dancing to non-practitioners is that it's like playing a silent, wearable musical instrument that demands attention from your entire body. It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively :-)

So, you need to be a competitive dancer then? ;) To get that good you need discipline and dance for years (or just be a natural), so don't seem that far fetched to be at a similar difficulty level as sports in this regard.

Well I'd guess stress is inherent to most competition, because of the win/lose outcome.

I'm sure that's not always a net negative, but I can say it hurt my dancing during the few times I've tried it competitively.

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#73
post #50

Looking at this: "Dancing compared to conventional fitness activity led to larger volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex. Only dancing was associated with an increase in plasma BDNF levels. Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged. The latter finding may indicat…

No wonder science journalism has a hard time keeping to the facts, even with direct access to the paper we're upvoting and misunderstanding a paper of trivial significance...

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#74
Is a complex, full-body coordinated accelerated movement like an olympic clean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_and_jerk) considered 'repetitive physical exercise'?

People see a barbell and they think bodybuilding, but there's a minority of weightlifting that involves a degree of complexity that's qualitatively in a different league than, say, bicep curls. I'm curious how it pans out.

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#75

I've been a dancer for 30 years, of many forms. The best way I can describe dancing to non-practitioners is that it's like playing a silent, wearable musical instrument that demands attention from your entire body. It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively :-)

I don't dance, but (when fencing) I've been told that fencing scratches a similar itch to some forms of dancing (apparently). You are also acting for the referee too, thinking about it.

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can totally see your point. Which makes me wonder... Is dance superior to repetitive exercise for seasoned dancers, or are they actually the same thing?

There are many kinds of dance and styles. I guess the main ways to divide could be a) Partner dance b) Group dance, and a') Choreography b') Improvisation. Even for seasoned dancers there is a lot to offer in all of those. In partner dance you have to watch and adapt to your partner all the time (no matter the skill level). In choreography you of course have to learn new programs and execute them well (displaying the…

Thanks for the info. In that case I guess we can only infer that dance is better than repetitive exercise providing you are not banging out the same routines over and over. (In which case it is arguably repetitive exercise itself)

This aligns much better with my view that creating and accessing relatively new/rarely used pathways is the mechanism that keeps our brains agile.

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you seriously not think that playing a sport requires control of your entire body? Have you ever tried to actively improve at a sport? Everything from basketball to golf is fine muscle control from the lowest to highest levels. Some people cant see their own bias I guess. :)

it == dancing && it != sport dancing.entails(entire_body) sport.entails(entire_body) Clearer now?

[deleted]

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#78
Did both group contain similar amount of people who genuinely enjoyed the activity? An pretty old finding with physical exercise is that health benefits primarily only comes into effect in people who actually enjoy the activity. Two people doing the same mechanical physical motion get different health benefit if one enjoy it and the other disliked it (can't cite the exact study but remember findings in both human as well as animal studies, and the implied cause is that one trigger stress hormones while the other trigger growth).

It would not surprise me if the dance group did better than the fitness training simply because the dance members enjoyed dancing more than the fitness members enjoyed fitness training, through I might be biased as I am not one who enjoy fitness training at all.

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#79
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but:

When looking at studies, there are two types of validity to pay attention to, "external" and "internal." Internal is the sort that says: does this study actually test what it claims to? If a study looks in a black box, sees there's no elephant inside, and says "there's no elephant in there! Huzzah, we've proven it's a tiger!", that's an internally invalid study. External validity is about applicability: if I give a dose of abx to a bunch of people with advanced AIDS to treat an infection, and find it doesn't work, it doesn't mean "this abx doesn't work." It means "this abx doesn't work /in this population/. Don't extrapolate it to an immune-competent population."

1. The study begins with what they describe in their registration documents as "healthy elderly." That's a bit kind: "Sixty-two normal volunteers, who responded to a local advertisement, were screened. Subjects with any neurological condition, metallic implants, claustrophobia, tinnitus, BMI ≤30, high blood pressure (systolic≤140 mmHg), diabetes mellitus, intensive physical engagement (more than 1 hour/week) and abnormal performance in a cognitive screening test (MMSE 13) [33] were excluded." In short, they started with an anomalously healthy population, who likely have a lifetime of exposure to exercise and physical activity. Do the results here extrapolate to the general population? Do they extrapolate to the same degree? It's a decent question mark, considering their results are non-significant in everything except their "looks like false positives" brain volume measures to begin with - even a little bit of "ehh... maybe not so much" takes them into the realm of "no effects", alongside every other measure in the paper. External validity is doubtful here.

2. Internal validity is a bit doubtful too, first for reasons of selection bias. They recruited 62 healthy volunteers; they had 14 dropouts. A 22% dropout rate isn't atrocious, but it's more than enough - if it's not random - to skew a study. Their enrollment figure describes the dropouts as almost entirely pre-randomisation (10/14), but the study description notes that 6 drop-outs were due to failure to achieve frequency of adherence, which clearly had to occur post-randomization, and 2 due to dissatisfaction with group assignment (obviously post-randomization). 6 got seriously ill - I'd love to know in which group, and with what.

3. Their way of controlling for equivalent physical load was to measure heart rate twice. On the one hand, not crazy. On the other hand, if you've ever seen your HR during a workout session, you'll see how noisy that is - and with a sample of a whole 38 pairs, that's a relatively huge amount of noise. Moreover, it doesn't appear that they used that to guide intensity of intervention, just "to control" (which I take to mean, to plug into a multivariate model at some point - except they don't, as they describe the covariates they plug into their model to be age, sex, and intracranial volume for brain volume t-tests) I'm skeptical this is an adequate control - I'd at least have wanted a time-weighted average HR.

3.b. The sports intervention had one effort-controllable component (sport bike), but had 3 different components. It's not at all clear they could capture the effort under the regimen above, especially as the relatively light strength exercise that the elderly tend to tolerate is the place where I'm most suspicious of them failing to capture an effort delta.

4. The differences in brain volume swung in different directions in each group, without making an awful lot of sense (more right cerebellar development in standard exercise group?? So, asymmetrically, the less-coordination-demanding intervention showed more development of the primary coordination center of the brain?). But more generally, looking at supplementary table S3, note that dancing showed improvements in anterior and posterior white matter, and standard exercise in temporal and occipital. The brain isn't that cleanly delineated - to find such statistically strong effects in such broad brushstrokes sets off a red flag for me.

The fact that there was scattered growth *in both groups suggests we're looking at false positives. Not precisely a new problem for this study methodology. Their p-threshold of .001 is considered best-practices (aka, the bare minimum) for cluster-based adjustment of multiple testing in neuroimaging: so that's good. They don't report the p-values on their brain volume testing; table S3 simply notes "p5. Dance group had lower BDNF plasma at baseline vs. standard exercise (1500 vs. 2100) (p .14), and equal at post (2200 to 2100, p .6). In short, they showed regression to the mean in the dance group. They report this as "the dance group had an increase in plasma BDNF from baseline." Serum levels likewise were not significantly difference pre and post between the two groups (dance went from 35K to 36K, sport went from 30K to 29K). In short, nothing happened. But they hid the "fucking nothing happened" in supplementary table 4, and dressed it up real pretty in the included figure 4.

6. Cognitive outcomes, the only thing that actually matters here: no differences.

7. At least some physical fitness differences? No, none there either.

TL;DR they found nothing, made some misleading figures out of it. There are no perfect studies, but this one just boils down to "found nothing, needed publication."

Re: Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain plasticity (2018)

#80

I've been a dancer for 30 years, of many forms. The best way I can describe dancing to non-practitioners is that it's like playing a silent, wearable musical instrument that demands attention from your entire body. It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively :-)

Do you seriously not think that playing a sport requires control of your entire body? Have you ever tried to actively improve at a sport? Everything from basketball to golf is fine muscle control from the lowest to highest levels. Some people cant see their own bias I guess. :)

> Do you seriously not think that playing a sport requires control of your entire body? Have you ever tried to actively improve at a sport? Everything from basketball to golf is fine muscle control from the lowest to highest levels.

I want you to read this entire sentence, including the part after "except". I want you to tell me what you think that last clause means.

> It is not like playing a sport, except perhaps if you do it competitively

Do you think there is perhaps the slightest chance that they did not intend to say that "playing a sport does not require control of your entire body"?

Is there even a tiny possibility that they said that dancing non-competitively is not like playing a sport, perhaps because they are including competition in the definition of sport?

> Some people cant see their own bias I guess. :)

Agreed.

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