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Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

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Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#71
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is a big place, if you take any piece of content it’s bound to offend someone. Should we ban content that promotes the Big Bang theory because it’s offensive to creationists?

Does the Big Bang Theory encourage violence against creationists? I don’t ask that question seriously, just to point out that generalising things isn’t always useful. For example, “hate speech” is a defined term and the Big Bang theory ain’t it.

> Does the Big Bang Theory encourage violence against creationists?

Excellent point. There's much broader support for banning advocacy of violence, than for banning statements that offend the audience's religious sensibilities.

Perhaps a better example is speech that advocates abortion rights. Pro-life advocates consider such speech to incite murder; pro-abortion advocates don't.

I think this adds an interesting wrinkle to the hate-speech / censorship debate: It shows that even meta-rules meant to keep a discussion civil (i.e., we won't allow speech that advocates violence) aren't necessarily neutral to the viewpoints being discussed.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#72
post #7

I feel like all of this debate is painfully missing the point. The problem is not some content moderation policy, the problem is that social media has changed social conversations from small local interactions into monstrous virtual fight clubs between millions of people simultaneously, and where the most extreme opinions are rewarded with the most attention. Boring level headed opinions used to at least have a chanc…

I am developing a site where the landing page only shows news about topics from sources you have chosen to see. There will be some limited interaction with those news stories. On a shared page, everything is brought together and you'll see what news sources other people are reading.

I am hoping this allows people to get the news they want, interact with it and see what news other people are interacting with... without the flame wars and hate brigades that Twitter and FB prompt

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the business model of social media is based on generating "engagement" at all costs I haven't seen evidence that outrage driven engagement is profitable, though the statement is frequently repeated. Is it possible that divisiveness is an intended effect? We know that governments sow discord to achieve selfish ends. Why wouldn't similarly powerful business interests?

> I haven't seen evidence that outrage driven engagement is profitable, though the statement is frequently repeated. Let's assume that you are able to create a social network the scale of Facebook and network effects aren't an issue (let's imagine a magical solution that interoperates with existing social networks in such a way that accounts work on either side and content is visible from both sides) with the caveat…

Is it true that failing to ban is the source of the divisiveness? I haven't used Facebook before, but it seems like the mechanism is the feed, which prioritizes divisive content.

Even as a relatively senior employee, you may be unable to discern intent. You might just get an incentive scheme that compensates you for engagement rather than profitable engagement.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#74
post #57
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were plenty of other technologies that could've been used to organize large-scale virtual fight clubs (forums, BBSes, chatrooms, maybe even the telephone) but this didn't happen because nobody actually wanted to foster such toxic behavior. “Nobody” is leaving out some pretty notorious sources of toxicity (e.g. 4chan). I think a key difference is that these huge platforms dramatically increase the reach of tho…

4Chan is only 4 months older than Facebook and is hardly that profitable. Which is what changed, online dumpster fires where not attractive to advertisers but add a veneer of social networks and some basic location / demographic data and suddenly things change.

Facebook really had two periods because it was limited scale prior to mid-2006, when the number of users grew dramatically.

I think the more important point is really the advertising angle: taking a bunch of small communities and giving them high-quality hosting powered by a billion dollar company along with a pre-developed audience.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#75
post #57
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were plenty of other technologies that could've been used to organize large-scale virtual fight clubs (forums, BBSes, chatrooms, maybe even the telephone) but this didn't happen because nobody actually wanted to foster such toxic behavior. “Nobody” is leaving out some pretty notorious sources of toxicity (e.g. 4chan). I think a key difference is that these huge platforms dramatically increase the reach of tho…

4Chan is only 4 months older than Facebook and is hardly that profitable. Which is what changed, online dumpster fires where not attractive to advertisers but add a veneer of social networks and some basic location / demographic data and suddenly things change.

And some moderation. 4chan wasn't ever going to attract ad revenue because nobody at Coca-Cola wants their brand run alongside a goatse link.

But massive political fights aren't something that the advertisers (until recently) see as bad imagery for their brands.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nothing new in kind. The founders were fearful of mass democracy too and sought to avoid creating one. For better or for worse, they failed.

Reference? I don't see us as having created a representative democracy to protect democracy from the masses. I like to think we are a representative democracy because the masses are supposed to have better things to do than keep the lights of government on.

It's pretty well documented in the Federalist Papers. I recommend reading them in their entirety, because it's IMO one of the most profound writings of political exposition in written history, even if you disagree with the philosophies being promoted.

Federalist No. 10[1] is probably one of the most highly regarded of the papers, and explicitly lays out these concerns. Selected quotes:

"AMONG the numerous advantages promised by a well-constructed Union, none deserves to be more accurately developed than its tendency to break and control the violence of faction. The friend of popular governments never finds himself so much alarmed for their character and fate, as when he contemplates their propensity to this dangerous vice."

"Complaints are everywhere heard from our most considerate and virtuous citizens, equally the friends of public and private faith, and of public and personal liberty, that our governments are too unstable, that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority."

"By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community."

"If a faction consists of less than a majority, relief is supplied by the republican principle, which enables the majority to defeat its sinister views by regular vote. It may clog the administration, it may convulse the society; but it will be unable to execute and mask its violence under the forms of the Constitution. When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens."

"From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

Hamilton also talks a little bit about this phenomenon in Federalist No. 68, and Federalist No. 62 lays out the impetus for having an equally represented Senate (which is inherently undemocratic), part of which was to check the immediate impulses/passions of the people, as can be the case with the House of Representatives.

[1] https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed10.asp

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#78
post #7

I feel like all of this debate is painfully missing the point. The problem is not some content moderation policy, the problem is that social media has changed social conversations from small local interactions into monstrous virtual fight clubs between millions of people simultaneously, and where the most extreme opinions are rewarded with the most attention. Boring level headed opinions used to at least have a chanc…

How can I upvote this twice?

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#79
Social media, and all of the "talking heads" on network news and talk radio, are basically in an arms race, just like advertisers have been for years. For instance, Coke can't stop advertising because then Pepsi or another brand will take over, i.e., they have to keep it up. We are now at that same point with politics: everyone has to keep it up, and even more so; constantly upping the ante. Facebook is the dominant platform for upping the ante, which gives them money, and more importantly, power.

Re: Facebook's employees reckon with the social network they've built

#80
post #64
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This long article doesnt address the most critical point. > If employees have an ethical issue with working there, why don't they quit? The article opens with a story of someone who quit.

You're right. He quit. However he seems to be the exception.

Maybe, I guess it's hard to know without knowing their retention metrics. As one anecdote, I was in the negotiation phase of an Oculus offer earlier this year and turned it down the same weekend of that infamous post[1] and I know a few people in my network whose employment status has quietly changed away from Facebook.

[1] Less because I was certain they should moderate it, and more because I thought it was weak how Zuckerberg threw Jack Dorsey under the bus, and how cynically the company steers the conversation to free speech to avoid taking responsibility for the adverse effects of product decisions. artfulhippo made the point I'm trying to make up-thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23929769

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