Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation' • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#71

Post by henearkr » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

anwseringmrns wrote: post #68

henearkr wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit it is only a speculation, but I made a link between the phytoestrogens and some health problem I had. I had a scare with a autoimmune problem, but luckily it was benign. However I learnt that estrogens weaken the mechanism by which the body learns to avoid fighting itself, and that it was explaining why women had a lot more of some kinds of autoimmune diseases than men. And the missing puzzle piece was when I…

You can read about estrogen lowering effect of soy milk here (studies included) - outline.com/5UkBSS

Thanks a lot! :) My fear is gone.

After reading the article, it turns out not all phytoestrogens have this estrogen-lowering property: this is a particularity of soy's phytoestrogens.

Beer for example has different phytoestrogens and they are not good.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#72

Post by MaximumYComb » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #70

MaximumYComb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many calories are you eating daily and how many grams of protein? Unless you're a bodybuilder at the end of a cut it wouldn't be very hard to get enough protein on even 2000 calories. I know this because I'm a large, military serving man who has been full vegan and now chooses to eat vegan where possible. The big loss is food culture. It revolves around meat and animal products.

If you order a normal salad in a restaurant, not the salad with chicken, you get very little protein I assume. Where is the vegan protein, non soja, anyway? Rhetorical question, it's on me to do the research, but here we are. A piece of meat is always available and estimating "enough protein today" is easy. It's getting better of course, restaurant and supermarket selections are improving.

Are you aware it's basically a meme in vegan culture that non-vegans assume they only eat salads? The food culture part I mentioned is difficult since a lot of places don't have vegan options.

I don't eat out a lot. A 450 calorie bean burrito that I make (zero soy) has about 28 grams of protein. A wheat protein based protein shake is 25 grams of protein for 120 calories. Two shakes and 1 burrito and I'm already on 78 grams of protein off 700 calories for the day. A couple soy based coffees pushed me near 95g for 1000 calories. All 3 protein sources here have complementary amino acid profiles.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#73

Post by MaximumYComb » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

tiew9Vii wrote: post #60

MaximumYComb wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many calories are you eating daily and how many grams of protein? Unless you're a bodybuilder at the end of a cut it wouldn't be very hard to get enough protein on even 2000 calories. I know this because I'm a large, military serving man who has been full vegan and now chooses to eat vegan where possible. The big loss is food culture. It revolves around meat and animal products.

I’ve looked in to eating more non meat meals. What I struggled with is getting the macros right. For example to hit 190g of protein a day, eating vegan my carbs would be way up compared to my current diet. At the moment I’m trying to drop body fat and from dexa scans/metabolic test they recommend I keep my protein high, increase fats and try to reduce carbs. I’ve tried doing the macros on a few vegan recipes but stru…

Bean burrito - 450 calories, 28 grams protein

Wheat protein based shake - 120 calories, 25g protein

Two soy coffees - 300 calories, 16 calories.

Those 3 proteins complement the amino acid profiles of each other. I typically only aimed for around 130g, so with two protein shakes daily and those other foods I'm very close after only 1000 calories.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#74

Post by uxcolumbo » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 9:44 PM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #10

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

The problem is the availability of vegetarian / vegan meals in western society. Sophisticated food culture revolves around meat. It requires planning and work (in addition to dealing with the lizard brain). In particular, as a gym-goer I want my protein, and if soya is out too, then it's quite a bit more difficult. Excuses, I know.

Watch https://gamechangersmovie.com/

Plenty of options for 'protein'

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#75

Post by uxcolumbo » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

normallove wrote: post #65

afandian wrote: post #4

Here's an interesting thought experiment for meat-eaters: Why not stop eating beef? your response might be a knee-jerk "but I really like it!". Everyone knows the huge environmental costs we are responsible for when eating meat. But it's really interesting to pursue the tension in your own personal logic-brain vs lizard want-it-brain. I've stopped eating most refined sugar and massively cut down on meat in the past f…

Red meat is possibly the most nutrient dense food in the world. With everything from essential proteins and fats, to minerals like zinc, iron and magnesium, to water soluble vitamins like biotin. It's also tasty and satisfying to eat. My parents had only two children, same as my grandparents. My family isn't growing and taking up an exponential amount of resources, so I do not personally feel responsible for unsustai…

This Oxford University study [0] concluded that the best thing a individual can do is to reduce or remove dairy and meat from their diet - because of the high costs to our environment.

You can get all the nutrients the body needs from plants - read articles by the Physicians Committee of Responsible Medicine.

Finally, how do you justify the high cost of your pleasure of eating meat. The cost is not just the environment, it's also that our demand for meat keeps people employed in this horrific industry (slaughterhouse workers experience PTSD) and the fact that an animal has to suffer immensely, so that you can get a piece of its flesh.

[0] https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#76

Post by tiew9Vii » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

chrisdirkis wrote: post #63

tiew9Vii wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve looked in to eating more non meat meals. What I struggled with is getting the macros right. For example to hit 190g of protein a day, eating vegan my carbs would be way up compared to my current diet. At the moment I’m trying to drop body fat and from dexa scans/metabolic test they recommend I keep my protein high, increase fats and try to reduce carbs. I’ve tried doing the macros on a few vegan recipes but stru…

From a quick search, common dietary recommendations for protein seem to be 0.8g to 1.4g per kg bodyweight per day. 190g per day would likely be way more than most people need, being that both a) a lot of people weigh less than 190/1.4 (much less 190/0.8) and b) a lot of people won't need more than the standard dietary requirements of protein. Definitely seems like you're not in at least one of these sets, though, so…

Yes, I do strength training and also trying to cut body fat.

I’m on 2.5g protein per kg body weight which is high as I’m trying to maintain muscle while on a calorie deficit.

If I didn’t need to be in a deficit on lower carbs it does look like I could achieve the macros I need from vegan meals. It’s not I need 190g protein right now, it’s I need to aim for 190g on about 2300-2500 calories with a bias towards gaining those calories from protein/fats. Hitting 190g protein would take me above 2300-2500 calories due to the amount of carbs consumed from vegan protein sources.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#77

Post by tiew9Vii » Sat, Jul 18, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

MaximumYComb wrote: post #73

tiew9Vii wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve looked in to eating more non meat meals. What I struggled with is getting the macros right. For example to hit 190g of protein a day, eating vegan my carbs would be way up compared to my current diet. At the moment I’m trying to drop body fat and from dexa scans/metabolic test they recommend I keep my protein high, increase fats and try to reduce carbs. I’ve tried doing the macros on a few vegan recipes but stru…

Bean burrito - 450 calories, 28 grams protein Wheat protein based shake - 120 calories, 25g protein Two soy coffees - 300 calories, 16 calories. Those 3 proteins complement the amino acid profiles of each other. I typically only aimed for around 130g, so with two protein shakes daily and those other foods I'm very close after only 1000 calories.

Black beans are one of the highest protein beans from what I read and a complete protein. Even so it’s 20g carbs to 7g protein. So for 190g protein that’s nearly 540g carbs a day which is over double what I need for my macros.

I also prefer real whole food over shakes as it keeps me from getting hungry as doesn’t digest as fast. Right now I eat 6 times a day and only my late afternoon snack is a shake with a rice cake, 20g almond butter and banana.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#78

Post by normallove » Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:43 AM UTC

uxcolumbo wrote: post #75

normallove wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red meat is possibly the most nutrient dense food in the world. With everything from essential proteins and fats, to minerals like zinc, iron and magnesium, to water soluble vitamins like biotin. It's also tasty and satisfying to eat. My parents had only two children, same as my grandparents. My family isn't growing and taking up an exponential amount of resources, so I do not personally feel responsible for unsustai…

This Oxford University study [0] concluded that the best thing a individual can do is to reduce or remove dairy and meat from their diet - because of the high costs to our environment. You can get all the nutrients the body needs from plants - read articles by the Physicians Committee of Responsible Medicine. Finally, how do you justify the high cost of your pleasure of eating meat. The cost is not just the environme…

I glanced through and the study seemed targeted at dietary choices, which ignores my point that transportation and other energy intensive aspects of life far outstrip meat production. It also did not go into my suggestion, which is investigate ways to mitigate environmental impact.

>keeps people employed in this horrific industry

I am for reform of the industry and personally buy in bulk from local farmers. Factory farming is horrible, I will not argue with that.

>and the fact that an animal has to suffer immensely, so that you can get a piece of its flesh.

Moral grandstanding. You don't care about the environment or health, you wish to impose your view of the world and personal choices on others. Your pretention of care for sustainability is a tool not a real concern. I'm willing to bet you have never met or talked to a beef farmer or slaughterhouse worker.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#79

Post by MaximumYComb » Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 4:27 AM UTC

tiew9Vii wrote: post #77

MaximumYComb wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bean burrito - 450 calories, 28 grams protein Wheat protein based shake - 120 calories, 25g protein Two soy coffees - 300 calories, 16 calories. Those 3 proteins complement the amino acid profiles of each other. I typically only aimed for around 130g, so with two protein shakes daily and those other foods I'm very close after only 1000 calories.

Black beans are one of the highest protein beans from what I read and a complete protein. Even so it’s 20g carbs to 7g protein. So for 190g protein that’s nearly 540g carbs a day which is over double what I need for my macros. I also prefer real whole food over shakes as it keeps me from getting hungry as doesn’t digest as fast. Right now I eat 6 times a day and only my late afternoon snack is a shake with a rice cak…

You mentioned in another comment here that you're eating 2.5g per kg of bodyweight, nearly every recommendation I see is between 1.4-2g/kg. Be careful with too much protein, one of my gym buddies put himself into hospital with serious kidney issues from going overboard. I'd assumed you were about 100kg lean eating that much protein.

If you don't want to eat vegan food, the only excuse you need is "I'd rather eat meat 6 times per day". The vast majority of western people could eat bodybuilder vegan diets if they needed to. If it is something you're interested in then there is a TON of vegan bodybuilders. Google Nimai Delgado or Torre Washington, for example.

Re: Amazon soya and beef exports 'linked to deforestation'

#80

Post by uxcolumbo » Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 12:00 PM UTC

normallove wrote: post #78

uxcolumbo wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This Oxford University study [0] concluded that the best thing a individual can do is to reduce or remove dairy and meat from their diet - because of the high costs to our environment. You can get all the nutrients the body needs from plants - read articles by the Physicians Committee of Responsible Medicine. Finally, how do you justify the high cost of your pleasure of eating meat. The cost is not just the environme…

I glanced through and the study seemed targeted at dietary choices, which ignores my point that transportation and other energy intensive aspects of life far outstrip meat production. It also did not go into my suggestion, which is investigate ways to mitigate environmental impact . >keeps people employed in this horrific industry I am for reform of the industry and personally buy in bulk from local farmers. Factory…

RE: I glanced through and the study seemed targeted at dietary choices

I appreciate it's a long article. The study went into more though, here is an articles that summarises the main points

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding...

Also, it said what the best thing is an individual can do to reduce their footprint. Giving up meat & dairy is a practical thing we can do today - no need for policy changes etc.

RE: Moral grandstanding. You don't care about the environment or health

Can you explain this further? How do you know what I care about? And I can't impose anything, I can only share information.

As far as I know what differentiates us from other animals is that we have moral faculty. Isn't it our responsibility to point out things that are wrong? And after looking at various studies - supporting the large scale meat industry is wrong, because of the damage to our biosphere.

We are not hunter gatherers anymore, so we in modern society don't need animal flesh anymore to survive.

The only reason we keep doing it is mainly because of taste - which you've hinted at already.

Hence the question - does your demand for mouth pleasure justify the death and suffering an animal has to go through?

And you don't need to speak directly to slaughterhouse workers. Again look at studies and what that kind of work does to ones psyche.

Look at farmers who cry when they have to explain what happens to a dairy cow (this was in BBC documentary called 'Dark side of dairy). Our demand for these products creates those situations.

Humanity is about moving forward - doing things in a better way.