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Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

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Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#71

Post by vowelless »

bkovacev wrote: post #59
mikece wrote: post #2

It's been used to treat diabetes and seizure victims for a while so, yes. Personally I lost over 70 pounds (from 295 to 225 -- I'm 6'5") at one point using keto. My main concern is whether one who is on the diet for weight loss will become overly sensitive to carbs if/when they start eating them again causing the body to immediately store them away as far instead of burning them (and if so, how long would it take to…

An anecdotal story, so YMMV. I was 280lbs and dropped to 240lbs using fasting + low carb + keto (at times). During the time my stomach would always bloat when I ate carbs. The harmony lasted for about a year and then all the benefits stopped for me at least. I stopped losing weight, lost a lot of strength even though I was eating 1800-2000 calories a day (two meals one protein + oats the other fish/meat + veggies and…

Seems to match my experience.

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#72

Post by randomchars »

shlant wrote: post #50
dazag wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the primary energy system. When a woman get pregnat, weeks before giving birth, she starts to produce ketones for the baby (it doesn't matter how many sugar the mum takes). And when the baby is born, meanwhile he drinks from mum milk he is in ketosis, because more than 50% of human milk is saturated fats. So yeah, we are in ketosis until we start to eat "food" high in carbs. The body can't burn fats if insuline…

> "It is the primary energy system" No, it's not [1]. Why do you think many organs[2] including the brain[3] that NEEDS glucose to run? > "we are in ketosis until we start to eat "food" high in carbs" No, that's not how that works. Infants are in a MILD ketosis and "this isn’t a function of their diet, but of the developmental period they’re in"[4] 1. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/59/3/682S/473... 2.…

[3] is very much not correct. Your brain can just fine on ketones.

Your body is also capable of making it's own glucose, for the organs that need it: https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Biological_Chemistry....

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#73

Post by shlant »

throwaway_kufu wrote: post #54
shlant wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It is the primary energy system" No, it's not [1]. Why do you think many organs[2] including the brain[3] that NEEDS glucose to run? > "we are in ketosis until we start to eat "food" high in carbs" No, that's not how that works. Infants are in a MILD ketosis and "this isn’t a function of their diet, but of the developmental period they’re in"[4] 1. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article-abstract/59/3/682S/473... 2.…

The brain doesn’t only run on glucose it certainly runs on ketones and ketones are much more efficient at crossing the blood brain barrier. Now when the brain is running off ketones it still needs some glucose, but the body accounts for that by being able to produce its own glucose and doesn’t need it from outside sources like carbs or sugar). Ketosis is the default energy System, in that all things being equal when…

> ketones are much more efficient at crossing the blood brain barrier

Source?

> Ketosis is the default energy System, in that all things being equal when a person doesn’t introduce any food they naturally go into ketosis. People literally need to eat certain foods that spike insulin to get “kicked out” of ketosis.

That is not a sound argument for it being the "default energy system". It makes much more sense that "default energy system" is that which directly provides the energy source REQUIRED by the brain[1]. Additionally, our closest ancestors (primates) were frugavorian omnivores. Ketosis is a state of starvation and the long term complications from it support that[2] but I guess starvation could be argued to be the "default state" of all living things.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK28048/

2. https://www.thepaleomom.com/adverse-reactions-to-ketogenic-d...

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#74

Post by i_cannot_hack »

kesor wrote: post #5

Yes. And it has been used to cure some things you wouldn't believe. Here is the shortlist of the more serious illness that the PaleoMedicina group in Hungary have shown to effectively treat using their low-carb PKD protocol https://justmeat.co/wiki/pkd/ https://www.paleomedicina.com/en/paleolithic_ketogenic_diet_... Here are testimonies of even more people healing their serious diseases on a purely carnivore and zero…

I also think the medical aspect of the ketogenic diet is somewhat promising, but I'm very sceptical of the work put out by the PaleoMedicina group.

Mainly for 3 reasons:

1. They have a vested interest in presenting their therapy in an overly positive manner, as they sell it for hundreds of dollars per day at their clinic.

2. I've read a study published by them which contained some hyperbole that I can only attribute to either incompetence or deception [1]. In short, they described a newly diagnosed type 1 diabetes patient which did not need insulin when not consuming carbohydrates (completely normal during the honeymoon phase of T1D) and had an increase of C-peptide shortly after diagnosis (also a common occurrence for many during the honeymoon [2]). From this (and nothing else) they draw the completely unfounded conclusion that "the paleolithic ketogenic diet may halt or reverse autoimmune processes destructing pancreatic beta cell function in T1DM."

3. Their website contains language and phrasing that I would only except from charlatans, and not from serious medial practitioners offering an unproven and unconventional treatment. Such as "Get rid of the inconvenience of visiting doctors: We cure you." and "A final cure for your disease" (above references to cancer on the same page, no less).

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267810000_Type_1_di...

[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21219422/

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#75

Post by cableshaft »

abtom wrote: post #62
StacyC wrote: post #34

I am 58, on a (mostly) strict ketogenic diet since 2013. It has worked wonders for me and I expect to eat this way the rest of my life. I eat a lot of meat and eggs as I have found that combination (1) is something I enjoy very much, and (2) makes me feel the best. I didn’t have much weight to lose but I went from 175 to 160 (high school weight) and under 15% body fat. My energy level is consistently very good. Diet…

Weight loss comes from having a calorie deficit, not from keto. You can gain weight on keto if you eat more calories. You can achieve the same weight loss by just eating fewer total calories, without cutting carbs as well.

It's usually a lot harder to eat too many calories on Keto, though. I know I was struggling to get enough calories for my meals from restaurants when I was eating keto. I was getting double meat and a side salad everywhere I went just to get my meal up to like 700 calories, and paying a lot more than I did off the diet.

Like at Panda Express for example, I'd have to get a 3-entree instead of a 2-entree, get greens instead of rice for 45 calories, grilled teriyaki chicken for 300 calories, mushroom chicken for 220 calories, and broccoli beef for 150 calories, for a total of 715 calories, and even that was just enough carbs it could knock me out of keto, at 36 grams of carbs, so I usually tried to do some form of exercise after that meal.

Meanwhile at Panda Express just getting chow mein, before you even start with entrees, is 510 calories, and fried rice is 520 calories. Then they'd probably get Orange Chicken, at 480 calories, and Beijing Beef at 470 calories, and the 2-entree meal is 1,460 calories, or 2x the calories that I consumed with my 3-entree. (Those 3 things are in the top 4 most popular dishes at Panda Express according to fan rankings: https://www.ranker.com/list/best-panda-express-menu-items/ra..., if they got #3, Honey Walnut Shrimp, it'd be 100 calories less)

The amount of carbs included with just about every possible meal at most places is a substantial source of calories, and you don't get a discount for telling them to leave it off (not that I expect them to do so, but a few more keto friendly options that I don't have to substitute would be nice).

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#76

Post by theNJR »

YinglingLight wrote: post #38
jahnu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also for the hard to market, varied diet but largely fruit and vegetables, moderate exercise, little or no alcohol, and regular checkups. I'm failing to some degree on these, I admit.

They are also for 7-8 bite sized 250 calorie meals every other waking hour. A feat that can only be feasibly achieved via living off ready-made readily-purchasable health snacks™. There is no money in fasting, intermittent or otherwise.

> There is no money in fasting

There is, and that’s a good thing for both sides of the transaction.

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#77

Post by abtom »

jonfw wrote: post #66
abtom wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weight loss comes from having a calorie deficit, not from keto. You can gain weight on keto if you eat more calories. You can achieve the same weight loss by just eating fewer total calories, without cutting carbs as well.

This is well understood by now. The issue is that most people aren't actually going to track their calories- they eat when they're hungry. If you adjust your diet- you can satiate your appetite on a lower number of calories. The idea is that meats, vegetables, and fats help you meet your nutritional goals on a fewer amount of calories when compared to carbs- because carbs are empty calories.

Agreed that satiation is a major aspect. How satiating a food is, is not simply about carbs/proteins/fats. Most carb rich foods people eat today are high in sugar and low in fiber. That causes people to overeat. You can also overeat with high fat foods because fat is much more energy dense.

You can just as easy have a bad keto diet as you can have a bad high carb diet. Replacing processed carbs with processed meat will not do any good. It's a group 1 carcinogen and will also lead to high cholesterol level causing heart disease.

My point is that carbs aren't the enemy. Neither is fat. Eating unprocessed/low processed food should be the goal.

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#78

Post by switch007 »

abtom wrote: post #62
StacyC wrote: post #34

I am 58, on a (mostly) strict ketogenic diet since 2013. It has worked wonders for me and I expect to eat this way the rest of my life. I eat a lot of meat and eggs as I have found that combination (1) is something I enjoy very much, and (2) makes me feel the best. I didn’t have much weight to lose but I went from 175 to 160 (high school weight) and under 15% body fat. My energy level is consistently very good. Diet…

Weight loss comes from having a calorie deficit, not from keto. You can gain weight on keto if you eat more calories. You can achieve the same weight loss by just eating fewer total calories, without cutting carbs as well.

Keto is the only thing that helped me lose weight through the focus on eating satiating food and not eating empty calories.

The fact you replace bland carbs and sugar with awesome-tasting things like meat, cream, cheese etc is a win and makes the diet seem quite positive.

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#79

Post by shlant »

reedf1 wrote: post #33
cies wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our bodies are primate bodies. Primates are frugavorian omnivores (get most calories from fruit, and eat very little animal tissue (mostly insects)). Fruit contain mostly carbs: short carbs a.k.a. sugars. We're optimized for eating lots of sugar. Primates have a hard time producing fat from carbs (a process called lipogenesis), just a few calorie% per day. This, combined with the tiny bits of fat in fruits/insects, w…

I agree with a lot of what you said - I mean this with the highest degree of respect - but I've noticed a certain strain of assertions here that throws off alarm bells. Do you have some resources on this "frugavorian" thing?

here's some information to start with:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-9699-0_...

Here is a simplified overview:

https://steemitimages.com/DQmYgdPbWvCt78oycPdEKNffevjh7UnCsq...

Re: Can an extreme low carb diet be used as medicine?

#80

Post by dalore »

abtom wrote: post #62
StacyC wrote: post #34

I am 58, on a (mostly) strict ketogenic diet since 2013. It has worked wonders for me and I expect to eat this way the rest of my life. I eat a lot of meat and eggs as I have found that combination (1) is something I enjoy very much, and (2) makes me feel the best. I didn’t have much weight to lose but I went from 175 to 160 (high school weight) and under 15% body fat. My energy level is consistently very good. Diet…

Weight loss comes from having a calorie deficit, not from keto. You can gain weight on keto if you eat more calories. You can achieve the same weight loss by just eating fewer total calories, without cutting carbs as well.

"Eat less, move more" is the advice professionals have been giving for years. This advice doesn't work though. Yes you have to do those things but telling people to do that in of itself is useless. There are strong biological/environmental factors at play working against that very advice. Having obesity isn't just some decision that people wake up and decide on.

The main advantage of the low-carb diet is that it may cause you to want to eat less. Even without counting calories, overweight people tend to eat fewer calories on low carb. Sugar and starch may increase your hunger, while avoiding them may decrease your appetite to a more manageable level. If your body wants to have an appropriate number of calories, you don’t need to bother counting them. Thus, calories count, but you don’t need to count them.

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