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LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

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Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, here you go: https://imgur.com/a/PZMaqff org.gnome.Shell.desktop[4355]: Window manager warning: Invalid WM_TRANSIENT_FOR window 0x9000024 specified for 0x9000965 (LibreOffic). You have shamed me into raising a bug ;) edit: raised, the 6.0 branch is EOL, doesn't happen in 6.4.5.2

Ah, I am using i3wm as wm; that might be the difference...

I am happy to report it doesn't happen with 6.4.5.2.

It's a shame that the snaps installed by default in Ubuntu haven't been updated.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#72
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you make a video of that? I am clicking myself silly (ubuntu 18.04 / 6.0.7.3) and cannot repeat that behavior. I use calc a lot and it rarely crashes (less than excel/windows which, on my ms surface tablet, actually quite regularly crashes or hangs).

Sure, here you go: https://imgur.com/a/PZMaqff org.gnome.Shell.desktop[4355]: Window manager warning: Invalid WM_TRANSIENT_FOR window 0x9000024 specified for 0x9000965 (LibreOffic). You have shamed me into raising a bug ;) edit: raised, the 6.0 branch is EOL, doesn't happen in 6.4.5.2

yup, that's the thing, people love to complain on random social media platforms, but most people can't be bothered to report bugs. been guilty of it myself as well of course

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#73

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

What’s so undesirable about teaching some technology in school and that technology changing over the years? Heck, I took computer hardware vocational classes in high school, and we learned about ISA, ATA, and PCMCIA. I would never bemoan either learning those things or those things changing. It’s not like that learning was made useless when the technology changed.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#74

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

[deleted]

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#75

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

I think it is simply whether you are used to them only. My first time using Office is Offline 2007, the first Office with ribbons. When I want to use "old" UI in Office 2003 or LibreOffice(turning off ribbon), I also have problem finding the feature I want.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#76
post #38

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

The ribbon interface was adopted in 2007. That's 13 years ago. What is the jank? It's a tabbed interface of buttons instead of menus and sub menus. The most common operations are descriptive buttons. Give someone word 2003 or word 2020 who has never used a word processor before. Which one would be more intuitive? It's bad UI if people just learn where to click. They should be able to think in terms of "I want to do X…

I'm going to disagree here.

Alice is a new user who has never used Word before. Between word 2003 and 2020, I grant she'll pick up 2020 much more quickly - point in favour of the new one.

Bob is an employee who uses Word just short of 4 hours a day, 5 days a week writing and editing reports (the rest of the time he spends in Outlook, excel etc.). If there's a task that Bob does 50 times in a typical week, then it doesn't matter so much to him whether it takes a bit longer to learn the command (after about the 150th time he'll have got used to it), but it matters a lot how fast he can do it once he's learnt it. Bob literally becomes more productive by having an interface which he can operate by muscle memory, in a way that more than pays off the initial training costs.

Think of keyboard shortcuts for example: they're completely unintuitive to a newcomer, but with experience, Control+Z and Control+C, Control+V and the like save time, and time is money. My favourite word trick in this category, incidentally, is Control+Space "remove formatting" for text you've pasted in from elsewhere; it doesn't work all of the time though. You used to be able to do Control+Shift+V for "paste as plain text", I don't know which version removed that again but I consider it a great loss. Paste -> Keep Text Only takes just longer enough to be annoying.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#77

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

I think this problem is not at all exclusive to propietary software. Take blender, for example. I spent quite a bit of time learning all the bits of the interface 5+ years ago. When I tried to go back, the software UI had changed so much that basically most of my knowledge and muscle memory is now worthless, having to google how to do every tiny operation. And this is not yhe first "huge overhaul" of the UI and keybi…

I just don’t think the specific way to do each operation in the UI is an essential part of Blender. Anyone using it professionally or even as a serious hobby will pick up on UI changes quickly. The real work you do on Blender is the actual art, not just manipulating menus and buttons.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#78
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, here you go: https://imgur.com/a/PZMaqff org.gnome.Shell.desktop[4355]: Window manager warning: Invalid WM_TRANSIENT_FOR window 0x9000024 specified for 0x9000965 (LibreOffic). You have shamed me into raising a bug ;) edit: raised, the 6.0 branch is EOL, doesn't happen in 6.4.5.2

yup, that's the thing, people love to complain on random social media platforms, but most people can't be bothered to report bugs. been guilty of it myself as well of course

The sad thing is that it's almost futile raising a bug against complex software like this or IDEs. It doesn't matter if it's FOSS or commercial, they already have backlogs of 10000s of bugs so unless loads of other people are reporting the same bug, it almost certainly won't be fixed.

I have never had a Visual Studio or Windows bug report fixed and only a few JetBrains ones fixed. However, if it's a small tool or library then it's a different story, much higher response rate.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#79
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently, I installed Office 97 onto Wine just for curiosity. I could still do much with it. The only feature I really missed from Word was academic references. I could create documents indistinguishable from modern Word using the old drawing features combined with modern fonts. The drop down menus, combined with the floating toolbars were much more intuitive than clicking up and down some "ribbon". The drop down men…

>perfected after years of refinement and familiarity That can be a problem though. One person's familiar tool with its well-known quirks and peculiarities is a newcomer's inscrutable and illogical interface.

Generally, though, you shouldn't optimize GUI:s for new users but for intermediate users.

[0] Cooper, "About Face: The Essentials of User Interface Design"

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#80
post #63

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

The ribbon interface it not just a "fad", it is a clear UI improvement since it removes a level of indirection. If you wanted to see how a font looked in the classic Word UI, you highlighted a text and selected a font from the dropdown. When the dropdown was changed to show the actual font, it was the first step towards the ribbon, where the UI generally shows the actual effect of the options. Programmers does not un…

I don't think the ribbon itself is a bad idea, but I absolutely hate the following two things:

1. Latency. When you click a dropdown, the whole interface can freeze for several seconds while Word presumably renders the menu or something. I can just about understand that for the fonts menu, but for the "bullets and enumerations" dropdown it's just plain bad.

2. Things moving around in the ribbon because Microsoft decided to push an auto-update to include some new search with bing or "data insights" feature.

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