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Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

newyorker.com

71–80 of 126 posts

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#71
post #63

First of all have all these psychological studies been replicated? Part of the reason, “facts” don’t change our mind is that a lot of “facts” aren’t really facts like physics, but are rather the result of statistical games. Finally, and I think the biggest issue is that a lot of facts rely on trust, since they are practically impossible for the average person to fully verify. And I think, for a variety of reasons, tr…

Do you believe that the vaccines contain mercury and aluminum and that those metals are causing problems in people who take that vaccines? Because that's a fact they contain those metals and they hurt people. I have a daughter who went from speaking to requiring 5 years of therapy to start speaking again. I not allowed to sue about that and no one in the medical establishment would acknowledge that the only cause of…

> Do you believe that the vaccines contain mercury and aluminum and that those metals are causing problems in people who take that vaccines?

That’s a lot to unpack.

Yes, vaccines have very low concentration of compounds of those metals.

Yes, those metals at the concentrations in vaccines can cause minor side effects, though there is no evidence of serious side effects.

But, more to the point, vaccines more broadly than those ingredients occasionally cause serious injury. This is a rare but known risk.

> I not allowed to sue about that

It is true that one cannot sue in the US over vaccine injuries but presented alone in this context that is misleading to the point of dishonesty, since there is an alternative compensation program (one where, unlike with regular court where if you win you are still out legal costs without extra proof of particular egregious conduct, you can be awarded costs and fees even if you aren't eligible for compensation for actual harms.)

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

That's because the “medical establishment” doesn't view vaccines as perfectly safe, but instead that they are viewed as being safe in the same sense as other prescription medicines but, further, than the public health establishment—the relevant part of the government—feels there is sufficient public health benefit from vaccination that even harms which would not compensable for other approved drugs are compensable on a no-fault basis for vaccines, to encourage their use.

> and no one in the medical establishment would acknowledge that the only cause of my daughters sickness could have been the vaccines.

If no experts would agree with your claims of causation, then allowing you to sue would just be allowing you to incur a bunch of costs to no end. A more likely explanation for no experts agreeing that the one thing you've focussed on as the cause being the cause is that there is not evidence for the claim of causation.

> There is propaganda about vaccines being harmless

There may be somewhere, but it's not coming from the “medical establishment” or the government, both of which acknowledge that there are both the common minor and less common severe harms from vaccines.

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#74
post #50

I saw that Yuri Bezmenov interview[1] ages ago and didn't really think of it until now, when crime statistics are openly denied almost as if crime doesn't really exist at all. Then I thought back to that Bezmenov interview with what he said about "demoralization". When a population is demoralized, they cannot discern true information when it is staring them in the face. I think ignoring facts has less to do with some…

The general public has been lied to, to a significant degree. People who have full trust in entities that have and continue to publish untruths seem more irrational to me than supposedly irrational skeptics, etc (it is unknowable what the aggregate rationality of a given group is, but good luck finding anyone rational enough to realize that).

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#75
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe part of it is expectation of instant gratification. But given how things change over time, slow adoption may not be worse than quick disruptive adoption that needs recalibration.

Agreed. One mental example I use is that imagine someone brought you proof of a ghost. Maybe it's a testimony from someone who is rational and wouldn't ever lie, maybe it's some unexplainable photograph or phenomenon. If you didn't believe in ghosts before and then suddenly switched to believing in them, then your entire worldview changes - the soul exists and can exert itself into reality, the afterlife is real, may…

I think you've just described religion ;)

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#76

According to 19th century German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, “All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident.”

The problem with that quote is that it is all too often adopted by people who wish to use it to prove that their pet "ridiculed" or "violently opposed" idea is one of those that will become self-evident, when in fact, it states nothing of the kind.

Many theories that are ridiculed deserve it.

Many ideas that are violently opposed should never see the light of day again.

Very, very few of those that reach either the first or the second stage ever make it to the third, and it is a classic logical fallacy to argue that being ridiculed implies that an idea will be proven true in the end.

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#77

Jordan Peterson studied/covered this as well; here's a short clip - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWbj-2DRLps

It's downvoted and greyed out because of a general hate of Jordan Peterson (which I've found is really independent of political affiliation), but it's a good clip in my opinion.

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#78
post #70
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'often' is missing not just from the title, but the entire article. It fails to draw any attention to the weaknesses or limited applicability of the experiments, and implies they're more universal, overstating their results. I believe this is deliberate - "humans sometimes don't change their minds on some topics when given some types of new evidence" is uncontroversial, it generates few clicks, little argument. B…

The article is about studies, not individuals. At the study level, they are pretty much universal. The effect is so strong that at this point demonstrating it is a routine entry level task for first year psychology students (my mother did a degree in child psychology when I was a teenager so none of this is new to me). I'm surprised at your last statement, my experience is very much in line with the article. Presumab…

We all agree that newtons laws are approximately correct. But this isn't interesting, it's not newsworthy. We focus on the conflicts.

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#79
post #11

I really dislike this narrative that facts don't change our minds and we are all irrational. The thing is, truth does exert a pull on our beliefs. It's a slow force. It may take years for people to come around to it. Sometimes it even happens on a generational scale. But we are approaching the truth. Everything in history, and everything in our daily experience tells us this. A couple of experiments where researchers…

> But we are approaching the truth. Everything in history, and everything in our daily experience tells us this.

I think this needs substantiation. You present this like a fact, but it looks entirely like an opinion: your interpretation of history.

It presents a sense of inevitability that I find extremely dangerous.

The only thing that keeps us from losing what we have today - as many civilizations have done in the past - is our actions. Presenting it as historical inevitability cheapens both the meaning of our actions but also discourages people from seeing just how important active effort is.

Re: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds (2017)

#80
post #11

I really dislike this narrative that facts don't change our minds and we are all irrational. The thing is, truth does exert a pull on our beliefs. It's a slow force. It may take years for people to come around to it. Sometimes it even happens on a generational scale. But we are approaching the truth. Everything in history, and everything in our daily experience tells us this. A couple of experiments where researchers…

I don't know if it's to discredit democracy so much as humanism. A lot of people right now seem to be fantasizing about a collectivist democracy, which can be as oppressive and destructive as an autocracy.
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