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Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

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Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#71

Post by edoceo »

simonw wrote: post #48

If you want a really big competitive advantage, figure out how to hire great people who don't interview well.

I use a gig to hire process for this. It works very well. I've been meaning to write more about it but I also get income for helping with hiring around this model so im a bit conflicted. The whole answer is long and complex. Basically: give candidate a proper task on your project and evaluate them based on that work - the "interview" is less than an hour, the "work" is longer (many hours (and you pay for it)) - provides a solid evaluation across their skill-set

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#72

Post by chucky_z »

RangerScience wrote: post #63
jaaron wrote: post #51

I'm wondering if much of the discussion here is even about the article, which advocates for things we long know work better: * Structured interviews * Blind auditions * Competency-related evaluations The title "Job interviews don't work" is rather bait-clicky when clearly they advocate that _some_ form of job interviews work. Or are at least better. As a technical hiring manager for over a decade, here's where I'm at…

> The next best interview would be a portfolio. I tried using my (limited) open source hobby project portfolio as a substitute for coding interviews. Companies either didn't take me up on it, or still also required me to do their regular take-home. Twice now, I have had two companies ask for the same take-home, although in the first case they asked me to re-do the work in their preferred language.

FWIW, as a hiring manager, if someone has a portfolio I definitely judge them on it, and if it's good it allows me to bypass huge swaths of technical/coding interview stuff and dig much deeper into where/what I want. I always take it as a positive, even if it's old stuff.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#73

Post by foolmeonce »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

There's nothing wrong with apprenticeships but if senior hiring remains unfixed then what is the apprenticeship for? As long as going from one company to another is a major hardship with risks and drop out tech is not really a career path.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#74

Post by wonder_er »

stove wrote: post #11

There's a growing rift in software between employers saying "there's a talent shortage" and a rapidly growing population of devs who feel like they're locked out due to the technical interview process. Many of the engineers not being hired are recent bootcamp grads but there are also tons of CS majors that can't seem to "crack" the interview process. Part of my job is helping companies "fix" their hiring and one of t…

I think this is the way that hiring will work in the future, and companies will be slow to adapt it... until a few companies show amazing results, then everyone will get onboard, in order to lock down good results early.

Seems similar to https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/02/10/processing-interns...

I imagine a big part of the success of this approach, though, is that the companies have the proper orientation towards the technical apprenticeship.

So, if the technical apprenticeship goes well, of course the apprentices benefit, but I suspect the members of their teams that support them also derive massive benefit.

What a cool opportunity for less-senior developers, to play a role in helping the technical apprentices make a large impact.

I'd love to talk more about this with you. I didn't find your email address - would you be willing to share it, or send me an email at josh@josh.works?

this is a domain I've spent a lot of time on, and have only scratched the surface.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#75

Post by monksy »

edoceo wrote: post #71
simonw wrote: post #48

If you want a really big competitive advantage, figure out how to hire great people who don't interview well.

I use a gig to hire process for this. It works very well. I've been meaning to write more about it but I also get income for helping with hiring around this model so im a bit conflicted. The whole answer is long and complex. Basically: give candidate a proper task on your project and evaluate them based on that work - the "interview" is less than an hour, the "work" is longer (many hours (and you pay for it)) - provi…

> and you pay for it

But just think about all of those business people that want free work and to hire people that are willing to throw themselves in to the project for no extra comp. /s

I agree.. also that sets boundaries.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#76

Post by kqr »

invalidOrTaken wrote: post #19
kabdib wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this a serious problem? You would be astonished, absolutely flabbergasted, at the number of "senior engineers" who interview well, talk great about projects, but cannot demonstrate basic programming skills (e.g., convert an integer to a string representation, or write fizzbuzz).

How does this happen? What (apparently huge) swath of industry am I insulated from where this can take root? Is this just a bunch of wannabes after tech salaries? Or is this is a side-effect of industrial java programming, where their "job" was basically filling in boilerplate? (I am probably unfairly slandering java shops, it seems unlikely, but everything else seems even more unlikely) It boggles my mind.

There's the concept of the "expert beginner" who works in a role when they're never challenged, so they quickly assume they're great at the thing when from a global perspective, the just stopped learning very quickly.

There's also the type that accidentally falls into a manager-type role way too soon, before they've actually had a proper chance to learn programming well. Then whatever basic skills they had atrophies quickly.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#77

Post by opportune »

Zaheer wrote: post #2

Related message for students / new-grads: Find an internship. Internship interviews tend to be much easier as the stakes are lower. If you perform well during your internship (arguably easier / more accurate indicator of success), the company will likely extend an offer. At big companies I've seen internship to offer rates exceed 30%.

30% is very low for big companies, I’ve never heard of somewhere being lower than 50% and 75-90% seems more standard (though offer does not necessarily lead to an acceptance).

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#78

Post by cuddlybacon »

invalidOrTaken wrote: post #19
kabdib wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this a serious problem? You would be astonished, absolutely flabbergasted, at the number of "senior engineers" who interview well, talk great about projects, but cannot demonstrate basic programming skills (e.g., convert an integer to a string representation, or write fizzbuzz).

How does this happen? What (apparently huge) swath of industry am I insulated from where this can take root? Is this just a bunch of wannabes after tech salaries? Or is this is a side-effect of industrial java programming, where their "job" was basically filling in boilerplate? (I am probably unfairly slandering java shops, it seems unlikely, but everything else seems even more unlikely) It boggles my mind.

It's partially just a numbers game.

If you assume the top third of candidates only need 2 interviews to get an offer, the middle third need 5, and the bottom third need 15, then 15 / (2 + 5 + 15) = 68% percent of the candidates you interview will be from the bottom third.

This, of course, ignores every human factor but it is a starting point.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#79

Post by kofejnik »

hellcow wrote: post #8
kanox wrote: post #3

> What’s the best way to test if someone can do a particular job well? Get them to carry out tasks that are part of the job. See if they can do what they say they can do. It’s much harder for someone to lie and mislead an interviewer during actual work than during an interview. Using competency tests for a blinded interview process is also possible—interviewers could look at depersonalized test results to make unbias…

> All these "competency tests" are good for is catching blatant lying. Is this a serious problem? Of the people I interview that claim they have years of experience, mastery over multiple languages, and expertise in various frameworks, a solid 80% or more can't pass fizz-buzz in any language they choose.

Having administered over 600 interviews, I second this. Most people can’t code, despite degrees and years of experience.

Re: Limitations and pitfalls of the job interview

#80

Post by text_exch »

Zaheer wrote: post #2

Related message for students / new-grads: Find an internship. Internship interviews tend to be much easier as the stakes are lower. If you perform well during your internship (arguably easier / more accurate indicator of success), the company will likely extend an offer. At big companies I've seen internship to offer rates exceed 30%.

This message is expressed very well here [1]. Tl;dr internships are helpful to students for a variety of reasons, like making applicants more valuable to employers, making programming less of an abstract concept, and exposing them to interesting subfields of computer science.

[1] https://getatechinternship.com/2020/04/27/why-do-i-need-an-i...

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