A practical case on why we need the humanities • Hacker News Board

Re: A practical case on why we need the humanities

#71

Post by hunipol » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 3:40 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #51

Frippy wrote: post #12

This article has some good points but is a bit meandering. The best point is right there at the beginning: the humanities study things which are not (entirely) subject to scientific rigor, but which are still worth studying. This sort of begs the question, why is anything worth studying? I think Francis Bacon made the best point about this: knowledge—real knowledge—is about the ability to reliably recreate some effec…

"knowledge—real knowledge—is about the ability to reliably recreate some effect. ... Literature and philosophy are collections of "experiments" conducted and suppositions made by our predecessors about how to live good lives" Completely and strongly disagree with both of these. Even in the sciences, there are many who value gaining knowledge for knowledge's sake, for the joy of discovery, and for a better understandi…

I think you took OP the wrong way. Bacon doesn't say knowledge has to have utilitarian value. He says that something only IS KNOWLEDGE if it can predict an effect. He was arguing against the many theories of people before him like Aristotle who said a bunch of things that sounded reasonable but were actually purely speculative nonsense, no matter how reasonable they sounded. In so doing, Bacon was establishing the foundations of induction and criticizing the long history of deductive reasoning.

Re: A practical case on why we need the humanities

#72

Post by JamesBarney » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 3:48 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #70

rayiner wrote: post #55

> The other thing we ask students to do, beyond merely encountering these things is to use them to practice argumentation, to reason soundly, to write well, to argue persuasively about them. If the purpose of teaching the humanities is to teach kids sound reasoning, good writing, and effective persuasion, then why is so little of that evident today when more kids than ever go to college?

> " If the purpose of teaching the humanities is to teach kids sound reasoning, good writing, and effective persuasion, then why is so little of that evident today when more kids than ever go to college? " The answer is simple: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." Even here on HN, we have a large number of people saying that going to college is merely to get a credential and that they didn't…

Then maybe we shouldn't be spending billions of dollars leading a bunches of horses that aren't thirsty to water.

Re: A practical case on why we need the humanities

#73

Post by antepodius » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #63

mixedCase wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are students in higher education currently facing different and conflicting ideas? That goes to humanities students, specially. It seems like when it comes to worldviews universities are almost monocultural, or maybe it's just a regional thing here?

Students in American and European universities are definitely not facing different and conflicting ideas. More often than not, expressing different and conflicting ideas will make you a social pariah, or even get you fired if you’re the instructor trying to truly make your students well rounded. In fact it is often those very same students that file petitions and participate in protests to get professors fired when t…

Man, he was asking a rhetorical question. You're (most likely) preaching to the choir.

Re: A practical case on why we need the humanities

#74

Post by antepodius » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #64

recursivedoubts wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. There are wonderful resources for getting a liberal education today. More than ever, in fact, and far less expensive than ever as well. They just have nothing to do with going into a humanities department.

A liberal education, by definition, includes the humanities. What's the point of using a forum for discussion if you're just going to make vague assertions and never bother to back them up? You talk of fear and loathing, yet seemingly operate on visceral reaction given that you continually refuse/are unable to list your grievances.

The humanities aren't just in the universities. If what you want is self-edification, you can get a lot of it online. The rest can be solved by carving out a niche of people like yourself you can talk to about the subject in real life.

Re: A practical case on why we need the humanities

#75

Post by recursivedoubts » Sat, Jul 04, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #64

recursivedoubts wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. There are wonderful resources for getting a liberal education today. More than ever, in fact, and far less expensive than ever as well. They just have nothing to do with going into a humanities department.

A liberal education, by definition, includes the humanities. What's the point of using a forum for discussion if you're just going to make vague assertions and never bother to back them up? You talk of fear and loathing, yet seemingly operate on visceral reaction given that you continually refuse/are unable to list your grievances.

I think you misunderstand me: I very much am in favor of the humanities as a part of a liberal education, I just wouldn't expect a university humanities department to teach me (or my children) much about them. There are exceptions, of course, but we are speaking internet here.

For a general overview of the situation, Allan Blooms "The Closing of The American Mind" covers it far better than I (or almost anyone else) could.

Re: A practical case on why we need the humanities

#76

Post by mcguire » Sun, Jul 05, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

mixedCase wrote: post #60

mcguire wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the reasons why there are required humanities courses: to try to ensure that graduates are "well rounded". As for their emphasis in higher education, where else are you forced to face different and conflicting ideas? Certainly not in political debates.

Are students in higher education currently facing different and conflicting ideas? That goes to humanities students, specially. It seems like when it comes to worldviews universities are almost monocultural, or maybe it's just a regional thing here?

Yes. Oh, it may not contain ideas you particularly favor, but that's kind of the point.

For example:

UT Austin English (Humanities, no?) major requirements (https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/english/undergraduate-program...) and spring 2020 courses (https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/english/courses/index.php).

Or maybe UT Austin Philosophy requirements (https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/philosophy/undergraduate/The%...) and spring 2020 courses (https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/philosophy/courses/index.php). (Hey! Philosophy is still teaching 313 Symbolic Logic!) (Aww. Bob Mugerauer isn't teaching Contemporary Moral Problems. He's probably retired. But he was great; he looked like Captain Kangaroo. Dan Bonevac is teaching intro from his World Philosophy text. Cool.)

Anyway, most of undergraduate humanities are surveys of various sorts, with the specific goals of getting students to present arguments coherently.

(Hey! Computer Science is no longer requiring PHL 313K, or automata theory. They're dead to me now.)

Re: A practical case on why we need the humanities

#77

Post by mcguire » Sun, Jul 05, 2020, 6:07 PM UTC

antepodius wrote: post #73

throwawaysea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students in American and European universities are definitely not facing different and conflicting ideas. More often than not, expressing different and conflicting ideas will make you a social pariah, or even get you fired if you’re the instructor trying to truly make your students well rounded. In fact it is often those very same students that file petitions and participate in protests to get professors fired when t…

Man, he was asking a rhetorical question. You're (most likely) preaching to the choir.

I don't know about preaching to the choir (I don't buy it, anyway), but

"There is only one set of ideas that truly experiences freedom of thought and inquiry in the humanities in Western universities, and that’s the progressive far left worldview."

has been the complaint since before I was born (which was a long time ago) and "what are they teaching kids these days" has probably been the complaint since universities were first founded.